Steve: Welcome to The Tim Faller Show, where production is paramount, and we discuss the tools, time and people associated with getting jobs done and making a profit.

Steve: On today’s episode of The Tim Faller Show, we will be talking about choosing estimating software with the help of special guest Jef Forward of Forward Design Build in Ann Arbor, Michigan alongside Tim Faller. I’m a co-host Steve Wheeler. Here is the Tim Faller Show.

Tim: Hi everyone. Tim Faller here, and thanks for tuning into the show today. Just want to ask you to keep on bringing in the ideas. you have an idea for the podcast. Send it in to me at Tim at Remodelers advantage.com. So I really appreciate all the feedback. We’ve had some great, great, input. And actually our topic today and our guest today is someone who was listening to our sister podcast, Power Tips Unscripted.

Tim: And in that power, that podcast, there was a question asked during a public forum about estimating software, and I think I was probably the one on the hook for that question, and I, I didn’t have a great answer. And, and because I haven’t experienced a lot of it out there and I know it’s a big topic.

Tim: So he sat me an email and said, hey, Tim, you know, how about doing one on estimating software? And I said, sure, if you’ll be that, you’ll be the guest. So we’ve got him on today and just let you know we are listening out there and, let us know what we can do for you. One thing’s for sure.

Tim: Estimating software has come a long, long way. I guess years ago, it was a piece of paper and a pencil. Maybe a written down spreadsheet of some kind. for many people, it’s just been an educated guess. I guess it’ll cost this much. but whatever the purpose of whatever it was done, it served a purpose and wasn’t always, bad.

Tim: People have made money using good estimates for a long, long time. But now, with the with the advent of computers and the ability to develop databases, and to recall information very, very quickly, it’s really, really changed the landscape in terms of estimating. There’s still a couple a little difficulties to answer. Number one, which software, what system, what works best for me, what will actually be easy for me, to me, for me to use another one is just how do we input all that data and how do I learn, you know, basically how does the computer system work so that I get the right answers?

Tim: And so we’re looking at all of this to look at like how do we put an estimate together so that when we sell a job it’s actually helping us make some money. When I was first introduced to computers a while ago, at this point, the company I. You, work for use a system called Timberline. And, the big reason we use that system is because I think at that time, it was about the only system out there for estimating and job costing.

Tim: Since then, a lot of things have changed. When I had my own little business a few years ago, just, you know, making sure I could pay my own bills, I just use an Excel spreadsheet. And that was pretty easy for me because I did fairly small projects. When you were in business. Steve, what did you guys use?

Steve: well, obviously, like you, I started out with a yellow notepad in the very beginning and a gigantic Bible. What was it? It was called like the R’s means the s meaning book. so I had that and, you know, and then as I started to build historical data, I, I, you know, I looked at different softwares, but I used a, these extensive, Excel spreadsheets, but that was as far as I got.

Tim: Okay. Yeah, I think that’s where a lot of people are. So it’s going to be kind of fun to talk to them.

Steve: But yeah, and to that point, I was always looking for something more, always something to make it easier. So I’m excited to talk with our next guest here. Jef Forward is the founder of Forward Design Build Remodel in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Over the last 20 plus years, Jef has performed every role in the company from designer, laborer, carpenter, bookkeeper, estimator, you name it, he’s done it.

Steve: Now with 24 employees. Jef has two full time estimators. He has worked with several estimating software and systems over the years, and would like to share what he’s learned about making his software decisions. Welcome to the show, Jef.

Jef: Hey, thank you for having me. Excited to be here.

Tim: This is going to be fantastic. So I know this is kind of simple just to get started, but when you talk about estimating, are you talking about just like the details of of the job itself or are you what are you talking about when you say software for estimating, what extent are we going to hear?

Jef: Well, there are kind of two initial 20,000ft views, so to speak. There’s the estimator, or the document that produces the estimate of costs. And then on the other category there’s the estimate system. How do you produce how do you retain or how do you, get input from your subs? How do you do your take offs?

Jef: How do you present it to clients? So two different approach or two different categories within there. And I can talk about both of those today.

Tim: Okay. So you’re saying basically you’re looking at this as a not just about getting the numbers right, but actually in is there a way for us to present this to other people that are involved in the process?

Jef: Correct. Yes.

Tim: Okay. That’s cool, because most of us, when we think about an estimate, we just think about like, okay, I gotta get my numbers right and don’t often think about the other side of it.

Jef: Yes.

Tim: so that’s our call. So let’s just, let’s just kind of jump right into it that when you’re, when you’re thinking about a software program, where do you start? I mean, what are what are some of the things that you’ll look at or you think a company should look at when they’re when they’re saying, like, we want to get some software that really works for us.

Tim: what do you think the first step is for making that work?

Jef: Well, the first step is to not look at any software. That’s the trap that I see everyone do. And they fall in love with some bells. Or whistle. that is probably really cool, but, the rest of the software may fall down when they really apply it to the needs to their needs. So the first thing that I recommend that everyone do is to create a process and needs document.

Tim: Okay. What is that? What does that mean?

Jef: well, it’s a document that you can, when you’re done with it, you can make copies of it and, literally use that to help grade the software. You’re looking at. it’s a it’s an it’s a really simple approach. and I learned this from, Joe Stoddard over at, the GLC online, forums. Yeah, about, 12 years ago or 15 years ago somewhere in there.

Jef: And, I simplified it for me, and it’s I just take a sheet of paper, I create three columns on it, and the first column I fill out with our process. the second column I fill out with what I feel our output needs to be. And then our third column, we leave open, and that’s when we, we fill in, kind of the evaluation against the software.

Jef: But it all comes down to your to defining your process and your needs.

Tim: So give us can you give us a little, example of what I might, what might go in those first two columns if I was thinking about getting some estimating software?

Jef: yes. So, the first thing with any, anytime you estimate is you’re doing a take offs, right? There’s something that you’re going to be doing by hand and producing these numbers on a, on a, a yellow pad of paper, or is it going to be, do you already have a, standalone, take off, software like, say, Vue 360, which is a free software, and does export into, Excel.

Jef: and it be that this is how we’re doing it now, but I would like to, increase that, to a, all inclusive system. the second thing that you’re typically doing in the process is you are, you’re writing out each trade that you want to do, that you’re estimating on, and then you’re, you’re producing your, your estimate, and then you have what type of reports typically in the process are you presenting preliminary budgets to clients or are you just presenting a final.

Jef: This is the number price, and our, our trade. trade work orders, our RFQ is included. Our work orders included. different estimates, reports that you’re going to then use to enter into QuickBooks. and then that the next aspect of that is once you’ve got the job, what are you going to be doing with the numbers?

Jef: Is it tied into a job costing system? or is it all hand entered into QuickBooks? So it’s kind of, if you think about it as the life of the numbers from their initial inception until you put the project to bed, your estimate is that the core functionality of that process.

Tim: So it almost sounds like you’re writing what I would call a job description for the software. In other words, you’re saying if if everything works just right, this is what I want it to do. And then you’re and then you’re taking each of those lines and saying, you know, does the software pass this? Does it do this?

Jef: Correct? Yes.

Tim: And is there any room in there for like I know again, I’m thinking of it from a production side here, but is there any room in there for like negotiable. So in other words, it would be great if it did this, but if it doesn’t, I’m okay with that.

Jef: yes, very much so. And it may be that, you’re looking for something that’s going to solve your needs for the next year or two years.

Tim: Okay, well.

Jef: If you are planning on growing, you’re going to be thinking about, okay, I’m going to need to have more than one person working in, you know, or doing estimates. So.

Tim: So it may be that this document has some stages to it if you will. Some like initially we need all this. And then long term it has to have multiple users. It has to, you know, do various other things that we’re not ready for right now, but we’re going to be ready for a year from now or two years from now.

Jef: Correct. And there’s ways that you can mix and match software. you know, to suit that purpose. But there are also several really good, all inclusive systems that are out, and they’re only going to get better.

Tim: So okay, so let’s hang on to those okay. Just for a little bit. We definitely want to give some names to people of anything that you might recommend. They they at least look at. Although we might be, you know, shooting ourselves in the foot by saying, don’t look at the stuff by actually giving them the names. But what would you say to somebody who just seems to be looking for a quick fix?

Jef: there are no quick fixes. This is a fundamental pillar in the success of your company. If you’re not willing to invest and get the right software, you might as well close your doors. In my opinion. So. Or just be a handyman and that’s that’s great. Handyman still have to do estimates, but they’re not typically bound by a fixed fee.

Jef: So right. If you really want to own a business and be successful, the estimating is it’s fundamental to your success.

Tim: So give us a little bit of, a feedback on your company and how a good estimating system has really helped you guys. What are some of the things that you’ve seen that by doing all this, you’ve been able to achieve as a result of a good estimate system?

Jef: a good estimating system had for us has allowed multiple people to see the numbers and have input and, commentary on the numbers. And we are also able to, get we have weekly job cost meetings and we give, weekly reports back to our project managers and our bill team, both on labor hours and overall job costs and, subcontractors and materials.

Jef: but the bigger thing for us, too, is that we’ve been able to build out our own database, with our costs, and we can look at, projects in a number of different ways. And our preliminary estimating has improved tenfold over the last ten years, where we can give much better range and give much better, feedback or value to our clients when we’re talking about which directions to pursue in their project.

Tim: That’s fine. So how do your how does your team help you build that database or update that database? Because we were just, just talking with Judith Miller on another podcast about the need for, good numbers and things like that. So how have you and your team cross that bridge where it’s not just finger pointing at the estimate or didn’t get this and you didn’t work hard enough and all that?

Tim: How did you get past that, where you’re estimating is actually hitting your budget or your field crew?

Jef: Well, we have so first, it’s it’s been a long history of of building the, the database and with every job cost we have records. we do autopsies. we don’t call them autopsies. We, we’re bringing life back into, the business. And the critical project report. And from there, in any past job, we can go back through, our system, and we can see these reports and we can see where there was slippage and where there was cribbage.

Jef: And we also, after every job, the individual, train gets pushed out to a trade, excel sheet, or a spreadsheet. I’ll just.

Tim: Okay.

Jef: It’s referencing Excel. so we can go to, our plumber’s, spreadsheet, and we can see the last 40 jobs we’ve done, and we can have a little, description of what the work was. So we understand the scope and, and we can see what the expected cost will be on a future similar project. And that’s the challenge with remodeling is that everything is different.

Jef: We’ve never done one job actually the same. So, estimating is, is it really is a fine art of, guessing and, predicting the future and setting guidelines for clients, to make decisions within.

Tim: So is this a good example of where you’re talking about your estimating system pushing something out? In other words, your system will literally push some information to some spreadsheets that will eventually be good. reference points for the where the estimating is that, is that an example of that?

Jef: it doesn’t automatically push it out.

Tim: Okay.

Jef: Copy and paste that information. Okay.

Tim: Okay. Yeah. I just want to clarify because that would be really cool. It would do it automatically.

Jef: And there there’s some systems that can do that. But again like you said we don’t want to talk about that. You know, you don’t want to fall in love with that feature because that’s an end game feature. And what we realized is, that we still wanted that, that to be a by hand procedure. Because, because that’s we’re making sure we’re taking care of our database.

Tim: Yeah. I think sometimes it does make sense to do because the process of literally cutting and pasting that helps you think about that process as opposed to, right, it’s out there, you know, somewhere. And we haven’t really, paid attention to it. So all right. Cool. So let’s just talk about software. So what what is what are your recommended.

Tim: What are what are some things you’ve looked at maybe some strengths and weaknesses. And so forth like that. That maybe again we want to urge the listeners do the do the sheet original sheet first and then start looking at software because I, I’ve seen this happen, any number of software packages that they’re presented as such a way that’s going to solve all your problems.

Tim: Then when you get them, they don’t do half of what you want them to do. And so I love that. I love that approach. But let’s see if we can, is there something out there that maybe people should be looking at?

Jef: Well, so the challenge with software is, you know, ten years ago we were able to say, the year 3 or 4, really good estimating packages or estimating software and they just built the estimate. but now there’s just there’s so many choices. You may go through this, process and needs document, and you still may find three systems that, you know, they rank out all the same.

Jef: And it’s just a matter of, which one you like more. But, so there’s, what I call, kind of estimator based, and then there’s an all inclusive system. So the estimating based, ones, two of, that I like a lot, is when asked and, clear estimates.com. And both of those are associated with databases and they provide many, many true estimating tools of, working with assemblies.

Jef: Or you can work with straight unit pricing, and you can divvy up your, the estimate in any way you want. for example, with Clair estimates.com, they have a feature called components. So and with remodeling you might be having to break out certain sections of the, project for, for cost, presentation to the client. And you can very easily do that with their component system, and then break it all out into a full estimate.

Jef: So it really allows you to slice and dice the information. you’re really proactive way.

Tim: So these okay. Go ahead.

Jef: And then that the, the next one is the all inclusive you should be looking at call construct and builder trend and they’re going to be combining a lot of the one touch kind of information flow from the very beginning all the way into QuickBooks and, and through the building process. and, you know, those two companies as industry leaders and developing software, you know, for this industry, they certainly come a long way.

Jef: And they’ve been able to even further. So they might not meet your needs right now, but it’s a pretty good better than AI in the future. But it’s just a matter of if your process matches their process because because they they service so many people, they have one process to process. You have to follow if that works for you, great.

Jef: but if it doesn’t, then you need to look at the other, software out there. Now that could do that. And and don’t forget about spreadsheets. Spreadsheets are the number one, aspect or the number one. It my opinion, estimating tool that, remodelers use. But the downside of a spreadsheet is that most people are creating, their proposals or in word documents.

Jef: So you get a lot of back and forth, which isn’t healthy. for estimating. It’s good. It’s a better situation, in my opinion. Or I should reference my needs, process and needs document. It was a really. It was really important for us that our scope of work in all of our client presentation tools came out of the estimate, and we’re able to accomplish that with our spreadsheet system.

Tim: So our are you using an Excel spreadsheet to do that or do you use another spreadsheet system?

Jef: I use another spreadsheet system. I use smart sheet.com okay, which is an online kind of Excel on steroids approach. But you can do a lot of what we do. you can do it in Excel and you can do it, in Google Spreadsheets as well.

Tim: Yeah, I’ve been hearing a lot about smart sheets for a lot of different applications, and it seems to me there’s a lot of versatility there, as well as a lot of power.

Jef: That was the key for us. Versatility. And again, that was something that was really important on our list of needs because I’m able to push information and this is the the auto process.

Tim: That right.

Jef: things into back and forth into our whip, report and also into our job costing feature and our labor, tool to estimated hours.

Tim: So, so, so really quickly, Jef, what are you used for? Job costing. Is that part of the smart sheets?

Jef: Yes.

Tim: Okay. So you’re doing all of that accounting basically in smart sheets.

Jef: No, no okay. All right. so after our estimate is done, we hand enter the estimate into, QuickBooks. Okay. An entry. Okay. QuickBooks is linked with a Madeira Soft, which is an Excel based estimating program. Okay. We use the there a soft for our job costing. And that has a back and forth link with QuickBooks okay okay.

Jef: And then I have a link system set up from that into my smart sheet. So okay it’s.

Tim: Okay. Cool. So give.

Jef: Us give.

Tim: Us a little bit of an example of something like. So you’re doing an estimate in your smart I’m not promoting smart. She’s here. I just want the concept to get across okay. The but you do the estimate. How does that push to something that you present to the client? Is it, does it convert to a word document or some kind of Google doc and then you print that out, or how does that work?

Jef: it works in a, in a unique feature that Smartsheet has and that you can create a report. So as I’m estimating, I have a little checkbox on if I want it, if what I’m estimating, if I want it to be included in my scope of work, and then I have a report that’s automatically generated and that is a feature you can do something similar, with Excel with a Vlookup.

Jef: formula between tabs and also with Google Sheets as well.

Tim: Yeah. So is that like so when you’re doing an estimate, are there like keywords in the description that say and then those keywords translate to some longer description for the client to see.

Jef: Yes. It’s the contact formula, system. So okay I’m working in my estimate and I’m changing the square footage or something. I just change it once in a positive monthly update in my scope of work.

Jef: Cool.

Steve: Okay, so that was my main question because as I would kind of protect myself based on the estimate or the sales call and, you know, not getting into, I thought we talked about that or, wasn’t this included type of scenario? I my scopes of work would become like the old man in the sea. There was this drum drawn out, thing, you know, and it involved, you know, when you have the plumber.

Steve: So how do you keep the verbiage the same when you have the plumbers estimate the electrician, HTC tile, everything included, to one kind of the same thing that has all the detail and how long are you I mean, what does that look like? Basically the scope.

Jef: Well, our average scope of work can be between 9 and 25 pages. Okay.

Steve: so I wasn’t crazy. It’s. That’s good.

Jef: Yeah. You do a basic contract language. that is included. And that’s all part of it. The template system that we have set up, and most estimating softwares will allow you the ability to add that template language.

Steve: Cool.

Tim: So, Jef, me being a little bit completely computer literate and not super literate, I’m sitting here going like, man, how could I do all that? You know, I mean, I’m kind of asking the question because I, I’m like a lot of people, I could use the computer once it’s all set up, but I don’t think in terms of linking this software to that software, to this software.

Tim: What what kind of advice would you give somebody like me who, you know, I guess I think in separate worlds, you know, there’s there’s Excel and there’s word and then there’s smart sheets and then there’s Google Docs. They’re all separate worlds to me. But you seem to have linked a bunch of them together to fit what you need.

Jef: Right?

Tim: How what what kind of advice would you give to people along those lines?

Jef: I would say so. I admit I’m a little more advanced, and willing to dig in and figure that stuff out. But yeah, I can break it down into into two areas. The first is, you can get comfortable with double entry, and you just choose a software that produces an estimate.

Tim: Right?

Jef: You’re handing that information. It’s a paper based system. You’re handing it onto, your job costing or your accounting, and you’re moving it along down the line. and that’s fine. And that’s been an approach that’s worked for a long time. Right. but if you don’t necessarily have the staff, you know, to do that and you’re looking for more of a streamlined system, then you’re kind of looking at a, that all in one approach with either builder trend or co construct where, you know, you’re if you’re not that advanced, chances are the process that they have will work for you.

Jef: And it’s just a matter of evaluating that. But again, only after you write down what you have is and what’s important to you.

Tim: Yeah, I think that’s been fantastic. I’d, hadn’t really thought about that before, but the way I, I mean, I’ve been I’ve, I’ve talked to a lot of people about software and my, my warning has always been that when you, when you get the demonstration, you know, don’t, you know, make sure they let you put your hands on the mouse and you click the buttons.

Tim: But, but this is taking me one step further, and I really, really like it. And the concept of decide what you want first and then get the demonstration.

Jef: So and I would also advice on doing the demonstration. Yeah. It would I would purposefully take off two days and pick pick three jobs. so I pick one job or two jobs that you’ve done in the past, and then on the 2 or 3 softwares that you’re looking at, do a test, do a test estimate and do it when you don’t have any distractions or interruptions.

Jef: And that’s the best way you’re going to evaluate it. If you can isolate that short amount of time, it’s going to save you so much time in the future. If you try to, the the downside is the other side is if you try to test one and it takes you a week and then you’re doing the other one in a week, you’re just going to go with whatever seems easiest and not really.

Jef: It’s a harder thing to evaluate. You can condense it. I highly recommend it.

Tim: So do you. Did you get more than yourself involved in this? I mean, would you recommend that a business owner engage like a project manager or I mean somebody other than the book? Obviously the bookkeeper is critical in this, but some and somebody else in the company versus just yourself, would you recommend that?

Jef: Absolutely. 100% in our case, we went through a period of time where our designers were also estimating, okay, the software that we had used at that point, I got their feedback on that system. And then once we transitioned into our current system, I had included our bookkeeper. I corner and, our production manager as well.

Tim: Okay. Cool. So we’re going to wrap things up here. Jef, this has been fantastic. Any last little, word of advice that you would give to somebody? We’ve gone over so many cool things that, I don’t I mean, I was, I was feeling like all the last, like, the last ten minutes was all little bits of great advice.

Tim: So I’m not sure if there’s anything left or not, but is there anything, you know, just one more nugget for us.

Jef: You know what? I really don’t know. I think we we’ve covered it all. Yeah.

Tim: that’s what I was. I mean, I was really, literally just sitting here going, like, every little thing that’s come out has been this little golden nugget. Yeah. That when you put them all together, they just make a perfect package for us. So,

Steve: I have a couple. I have a couple questions that I think, okay, maybe we could wrap things up. So, were the two estimators in place when you developed this or brought on a new system?

Jef: No, I was the estimator.

Steve: Okay. so how did you get to that point? Do you think salespeople should estimate?

Tim: Yeah, that’s a great question.

Jef: You know, there’s a lot of different, thoughts about that. For for us, it doesn’t work. for, you know, in our system, because our salespeople and our designers are people pleasers. And I need our numbers to be realistic. So we purposely set separate them.

Steve: Yeah. And that I think that’s a fantastic answer because those personalities are extremely far apart in terms of.

Jef: Right. Yeah.

Steve: What you said.

Jef: I know I know some people who do have their estimators do it and they’re very successful at it, but they do so by having a set unit pricing. Yeah, a wiggle room. It’s just it’s tons of square footage is cool.

Steve: Well that’s fantastic. Go ahead. Yeah.

Tim: Thank you so much, Jef. I really appreciate your being with us.

Jef: thank you for having me. I really enjoyed my time to you.

Steve: Thanks so much, Jef. Take care.

Jef: You too. Bye bye.

Steve: Well, Tim, that was awesome. That answered so many questions for me. Again, I have hindsight of being in business. just answers a lot of questions. I hope it did for the people out there. How about you?

Tim: so many different things. You know, I learned a new term for the debrief. Oh, yeah. Logger and autopsy. It’s CPR.

Steve: yep.

Tim: And, that was, little thing that I don’t even know if Jef realized that, he threw the nugget in there. the big thing for me, and we kept coming back to it was that initial document on the processes and the outcomes. What do you want this software to achieve? It’s way too easy. And I see the emails flying past for our groups, Inara and so forth.

Tim: Like, hey, does anybody have an estimating software? We use this. And I just am just totally impressed with that concept, going back and saying, all right, not what software’s out there, but what do we need? And then either finding one that fits it or, like Jef has done, these cobbled together 2 or 3 different softwares that does what he wants it to do.

Tim: And I just love that idea.

Steve: You know, another lesson I think is in here is, I mean, we have had so many guests on this podcast who have just brought so much fantastic information and whether it’s in their group or around tables or anything like that, I think it’s just get out and talk to people and learn from people with your competitors, whoever, just ask people questions.

Steve: Jef has so much information and so much experience. And, you know, I kind of like some people to turn to when I first started out. But you just have to get out there and talk to people and be around some of these fantastic professionals that we talked to.

Tim: Yeah, it’s just amazing what you learn from other folks and and just trying. I mean, Jef mentioned, you know, he’s he’s a little bit of a computer geek. I’ve known him for a little while. He loves the computer. He loves putting software together and stuff like that. But even even with that is just taking some time to really understand the programs and, and getting his team involved.

Tim: I think that’s another aspect of it that he does has done very well is to get people involved. It’s not just him saying, all right, I’m going to use this software now. Yeah, yeah. No that doesn’t that doesn’t help.

Steve: Now, now getting the team involved, maybe we could probably say that that’s been in, 30 out of our 40 something, I guess probably in communication. Well, yeah. All right. Well, once again, we want to thank Jef Ford for joining us today. And we always want to thank you, the listener, for being a part of this show and helping us bring you this fantastic content.

Steve: So thank you for listening to The Tim Faller Show.

Tim: And remember, we’re helping the bottom line through production, training.

Steve: And this has been another episode of The Tim Faller Show. Want to hire Tim and fast track your growth? Visit remodelers advantage.com/consulting to learn more. And if you’d like more information about roundtables, our world class peer advisory program, please send me an email at Steve at remodelers advantage.com. And of course, don’t forget to subscribe to the show and comment on iTunes.

Steve: Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.