Mark: Today on PowerTips unscripted, we talk to Ben Bensaou, author of Built to Innovate Essential Practices to Wire Innovation into your company’s DNA. Many people believe innovation comes from a sudden moment. Stories are told of inventors sitting around eating Cheerios. One minute and running down the street the next, screaming, Eureka! But that’s rarely the case. Ben is here to explain how you can embed continuous innovation into your company using a systematic approach.

Mark: And we’ll hear all about it in just a minute.

Victoria: On the most valuable commodity I know of his information.

Ben: Hi, I’m Victoria Downing and welcome to PowerTips Unscripted, where we talk about tips, tactics and techniques to help you build a strong, profitable remodeling company. I’m here with my co-host, Mark Harari.

Mark: Hey, good morning. How are you? I’m doing well.

Ben: This is going to be a good one. I love innovation, you and I both being of the visionary type. Yes, sort of. Right up our alley.

Mark: Yeah, no doubt. Let other people execute you.

Ben: I think we’re definitely going to have to ask about that, too, though. We’re in the middle of this.

Mark: Yeah, it’s good. I started reading the book. I didn’t even get through it, but I got through about the first third of it and thought we got to have been on the show and and hear what he has to say.

Ben: Okay, let’s dive in.

Mark: Jump in.

Ben: Ben Bensaou is a professor and former dean of executive education at INSEAD, the Business School for the World. As an innovation consultant, he’s helped some of the world’s leading companies build innovation into their corporate DNA. He’s been a visiting professor at Harvard Business School and a research fellow at Wharton. Welcome, Ben.

Victoria: Well, I think it’s good morning or good afternoon for you. That’s right.

Ben: Very much. Good evening to you. Being in Japan at the moment, right?

Ben: Yes, I’m in Kobe, Japan. So. Victoria. And thank you for having me. Yes. I’m very excited to share with you what what came out from the research for this book.

Ben: Yes. So tell us a little bit about the book Built to Innovate. What’s it about and what prompted you to write it?

Victoria: Yes, actually, in Central Park was was already kind of alluding to something that I heard a lot when I was doing the training and the coaching and helping organizations build innovation into their companies. Many people equate innovation with a new product or some kind of life changing new business model. Right. I find that also many people think that you need a genius leader, as Mark was saying, or to be a start up to innovate.

Victoria: That’s not true. During the research, I found that established even centuries old companies innovate. And how do they do this? Well, it is in a sense. They don’t look for, you know, industry changing effects, but for small, important and very often unexpected places, you know, some changes that are very important. They use continuous innovation, innovation of every kind.

Victoria: Innovation driven by everyone in the organization. And this is what the book is about. The book is about how do you embed continuous innovation into your organization?

Ben: Why is that an important thing or is it an important thing?

Victoria: Well, again, as I was saying, everybody is expecting innovation to come from the leaders. Well, that’s not really, really true too often. I mean, you know, every company starts with a founder and very often the founder has that that vision. But how do you keep the organization innovating all the time? There’s one thing. And second, maybe organizations rely on the top leaders or they rely on some specialist within the company.

Victoria: And it could be R&D, It could be some some some specialist of innovation to bring the innovation. And I think a lot of companies missed the potential of everyone in the organization and what have you. Sorry.

Ben: no. Keep going. That’s just.

Victoria: Yeah. No, but I found over the years doing innovation and that’s that’s sort of prompted the book. I found many companies and people, old established companies in traditional businesses. Not not the usual suspects. You know, the the high tech companies or the investment companies that they were able to enlist and leverage and leverage the innovation capability of everyone.

Victoria: And the way you would do that is that they would create what I call an innovation engine in the company. And this is this is a space that could fully legitimize space where everyone can innovate you. So. So which means that it’s not only the top leaders and the specialists of innovation, you can innovate in everything you do, not only in your products, but you can innovate in your processes or even in your functions like H.R. legal accounting.

Victoria: And you innovation or innovating, as I call it, thinking becomes a habit. And I think this is what I saw some companies which were like commodity type of companies that were able to turn around the business and become very innovative companies. And I wanted to share this experiences and develop from all the years I’ve been doing this, develop a systematic approach with concepts, tools and processes of how do you do this in a systematic manner.

Ben: Now, why is it an important thing to innovate? What are the benefits to this, to the companies?

Victoria: And mean I don’t know. I don’t know what to say. I mean, it’s you don’t have any choice. You know, when you look at it, the environment is is is changing so fast. Digital transformation sustainable energy, all these pressures that are, you know, on companies. I mean, if you don’t change, if you don’t look for new businesses, if you don’t improve the way you function, I mean, you won’t be there.

Victoria: I mean, again, I mean I mean, I can elaborate on this, but I not have the opinion that that’s a personal brand. I mean, you can’t survive if you don’t innovate. I mean, that’s that’s that’s the basic point.

Mark: Ben, in in the book you write a little bit about and I forgot exactly what the term some of these companies used, but you mentioned a few companies that are that give their employees like 10% of their time to be just playing around, tinkering, to innovate. Can you speak a little to that? Because especially like in a world like you think of like I would think remodeling would be kind of more, you know, from a manufacturing perspective where you’ve got just these worker bees that are just they need to crank out crank out jobs right?

Mark: And they just got to keep moving. So if you could just talk to that a little bit and the role expectations.

Victoria: So companies push push back and we try and Mark, if you think I didn’t explain enough why innovation is important. What’s what’s lost that and I’m sure a lot of people are remodeling and the stand that innovation is is essential to the survival of the company. So now having said that, now it is clear that whether you know, you’ll you know, you frame it that way or not, every company operates with two engines.

Victoria: One, I call it the execution engine. Basically, your your your your executing your implementing today’s strategy. But at the same time, because of all these trends of digressing your business and changing the business environment, the industry, the technology, the customer needs and regulations, you have to prepare and imagine the future of the organization. So now so it means that you need to have an execution engine and innovative engine.

Victoria: So the innovation is, you know, something that you have to take care of. You cannot just expect that people will come with ideas. You have to create a concrete organization where, as I said before, people, anybody can innovate. So for people to innovate, I would say they need three things. They need to I mean, they need to feel that they are able, which means that they need to have permission.

Victoria: And that sounds very obvious, but I very often asked senior executives, you know, and they all agree that if you don’t give permission, people won’t do it no matter what. And when I say permission, it has to be sincere. You have to give sincerely permission, and we can talk about how to do that. The second thing, people need to feel that they are capable, which means that they need tools, any training, any time.

Victoria: They need the space to do it. And then the third one is that they need to feel motivated. They need to have the desire to innovate. And I think that that is not a complicated one. I think the one in the middle, which is to to to give them the permission and to create the space. So this is where companies create maybe 10%, you know, some others create 5%.

Victoria: For me, it’s not so much how much you do it is that you create that that habit that everybody in the company and I’m insisting it’s everybody. It’s not only the senior leaders or those who like or like you said, those who have some sort of a visionary kind of attribute to them. I’m saying everybody in the company should be spending on a regular basis, should be spending some time doing some innovating activity.

Victoria: And and that could be as simple as spending some time with a customer, but with a different mindset. And we can talk about that as well.

Ben: Okay. So do talk about that a little bit. Not a lot of the companies that are in our listening audience might have seven, 12, 15 employees, right? Small businesses. Right. And so how would you train them? What sort of tools and training would you suggest to have everybody be innovative?

Victoria: I mean, there’s a there’s a whole a couple of chapters actually in the book that describe very specific tools. But it’s not so much I mean, you know, people can reach can find it. But I think what is really important is that people understand that it’s more a question of the mindset and getting people to understand how to switch their mindset when they move from execution to innovation.

Victoria: So where they are in execution, the people don’t necessarily know this, but their mindset is really come from a supply side perspective. They looking at it from their point of view. How are they going to solve the problem? A Given problem for the customer? So it’s very much problem solving. It’s really like, how would I say it’s a very conversion process, right?

Victoria: And trying to find multiple solution, then which one is the optimal position. So solution, when people move and they have to switch their mind into an innovative mindset, they have to embrace a customer side perspective beside you and look at the world from the customer. And because what is and this is, by the way, this is not about problems solving, this is about problem finding.

Victoria: It’s about finding what new problems can we solve for the customer’s problems and even maybe the customers don’t know. So this is a very divergent mindset. And when people are in the customer mode, they need to listen to a few things. I mean, I can highlight three. I mean, people are very familiar with what people call the voice of the customer is ready to listen to the pain points, the, you know, the wishes, the desires, the likes of the customers.

Victoria: And they’re I think contrary to when you are in in supply side, you need to develop empathy. You have to listen to your customer with empathy, even if it’s like I said, you know, if you have five, five, ten people, just make sure that next time when they go see a customer, they can spend ten, 15 minutes at the end of the meeting.

Victoria: Switch their mind from, you know, I call it from a sell mode to or a tell mode to listen mode, try to listen, try to listen. Things that the customers are trying to say. And it takes I mean, they’re tools and lots of tools for that. But I think it’s really the attitude that is important. The second thing people need to learn how to listen to is what I call the silence of the customer.

Ben: How do you mean.

Victoria: From the customer? This is what the customer doesn’t tell you. And these are things they don’t tell you either because they they don’t know themselves or sometimes it’s even worse. They know about a problem, but they don’t tell you because they don’t think it’s your job to solve that problem.

Ben: Can you, as I.

Victoria: Say, if you solve for the customer problem, they don’t think you should solve for them, but you do it. They’re they to love you. Yeah, right. So let me let me I mean, again, I know these examples that I like mentioned are not directly about the remodeling business. I mean, just as an inspiration, let me tell you about how Philips, a Dutch consumer electronics and appliance company, how they develop the the very first kettle with a landscape center, you know, the catalyst to boil water the kettle, they were the first ones who developed a kettle with a mouse filter that stops limescale.

Victoria: I mean, you can check your kettles. They all have that right. But the way they discovered about it actually to a consulting in our research team who was commissioned to help Philips re-energise their market share in the UK market. This was from the UK market. So for some reason the team leader sent a few people in the team, the research team, the innovation team to live with British colonies, literally live with the client, live with your customer, be your customer.

Victoria: You know, as I said, wow. And it took only a few days for the guys to realize that people, when they were pouring their their boiling water into cup of tea, there was this little kind of code, that little you know, you say code of life kit. You know, there was some limescale. I mean, because the water had a lot of calcium that was floating and they noticed that people were aware of it because they were painstakingly trying to scoop it with their stone.

Victoria: Yeah. So, look, this is a very interesting issue because this is a problem the customer is aware of. Now when they complain to the manufacturer about it.

Ben: Probably not.

Victoria: Bothering me. Not in fact, they they sent letters to the water authority.

Ben: okay.

Victoria: Right. They talk to the water operator and complain about the calcium in the water. But I mean, Philips, it just took their, you know, scientists to develop the little filter and mouse filter in a couple. And it would stop the limescale where people are are trying to. So this is this is a very I mean, you can see the example.

Ben: I was sure.

Victoria: It speaks to the science of the customer. This is not something the customer, even though they have the pain part, even though they know about it, they won’t tell you, even though it’s going to be very easy for you to solve, to solve the problem for them. Just quickly. And we don’t need to evaluate it. We can come back to it later.

Victoria: A third type of people your employees should spend time with is what I call non customers. See me? We talked about the customers existing target customers, but then you have some non customers, people who are not necessarily talking about people who who you would like to be your customers. I’m talking about people who are in your ecosystem. So for remodelers, I think the example can speak very nicely because the remodelers said, I have an end customer who paying for the remodeling, who’s paying for the project.

Victoria: But along the way there are architects, they are designers, they are influencers, they are specifiers, there are regulators who are going to affect what you can do and what you can do. So what this is saying is that what if you create value for the specifiers?

Ben: Right.

Victoria: That is innovation, because these specifiers will spend more time, you know, pushing your solution. So, I mean, this is a very nice example in a book about a cement company in question who developed a new technology which is very eco friendly, a lower carbon footprint. It’s it’s made out of a residue from a, you know, metallurgy industry. But the problem is that the industry is dominated by a few big companies.

Ben: Okay.

Victoria: And they were blocking, you know, lobbying against that and their customers against this technology. So what the company did, instead of trying to convince their customers, they went to work with the regulators and they introduced the new technology there. The trained and explained the new technology to the regulators. And when the regulators saw what it would do to the to do to the environment, they actually changed the regulation to allow for this technology.

Victoria: And now the customers were approaching the company for that. So you see, the innovation was not good this time. The customer missed the regulators. So again, if you think about your whole ecosystem, who are the people who are in touch with your processes, with your products, with your people, and see if you can’t find a solution to a problem of these people that would unlock, you know, markets for you.

Ben: You know, one of the things you mentioned earlier was that everybody in the company should be trained to be an innovator for the company.

Victoria: Right.

Ben: Right. Do you believe that all people are capable of innovation or are there just some people that it’s not so much their thing? They’re more a worker bees and that’s where they want to be.

Victoria: Okay. So this is this is a very interesting question. Very interesting question. I started with the premise that everyone has an innovative potential. Can you have it, number one? Number two, everyone has a customer. Right. So you have either an external customer or you have an internal customer. Remember, I’m talking about innovation of all kinds. You can innovate your internal accounting systems.

Victoria: You can innovate in your production system. You innovate in many things. Right. So I’m not talking about only products. I’m talking about all types of innovation. So now everyone has at least a start of innovative capability. Everyone has a customer and learning how to innovate is, just as I was saying earlier, it’s about paying attention to the customer is really when you are in execution mode, you are executing.

Victoria: When you have procedures, you have you have, you know, KPIs, and you have to be very, very you train people. Actually companies train a lot for execution. I don’t think that innovating, learning how to innovate takes a slack. I mean, again, I can I can talk about a few calls, but the tools are very often very simple, intuitive, visual.

Victoria: And it’s fundamentally trying to to to teach people how to serve the customer. I can maybe give you an example to show you how how I, I was, you know, reassured in the notion that everybody can innovate. So this was a something we saw with the watch out. Yes. Okay. So they were they were once and in Paris, I mean, you know that my school, INSEAD is has a campus in in the suburb of Paris.

Victoria: We have another one in Singapore, Abu Dhabi and now in San Francisco. But they were in Paris and there were like 700 attendees to this global conference. And they were running in Paris. And they asked us to, you know, kind of talk to the people about innovation. So what we did is that we gave you give them a few tools just to learn about how to pay attention to customers.

Victoria: And then what we did, we split the 700 people in 64 teams. Wow. And then we send them roaming in the streets of Paris with notepads and cameras and just ask them to kind of take pictures and try to capture experiences of customers and the other customer lives. So they went out, ran for 4 hours later, and then we started to take take kind of log, I mean, code all the the ideas.

Victoria: They had 1700 ideas.

Ben: Wow.

Victoria: Maybe that’s seven 1700 ideas. So we started them out. I mean, many of them were were simple ideas to improve on existing processes. And a few, as a matter of fact, ended up becoming corporate wide global new project that we announced a few years later worldwide. So and it was very interesting when we debriefed the people after this, many said, you know, I didn’t think I was an innovative type.

Victoria: Right. And then you said they said, you know, I was not I didn’t think I was the type of I think I can do it now. Great. I think all it took for them to have this experience again, I’m insisting on that to to, to to encounter your customer. That was a different mindset.

Ben:

Victoria: And then, of course, you can have a few tools, but I think it starts with that. And I think that if a company starts to give permission to people and they didn’t do other thing, I would like to say, like in story is that my experience working with many companies around the world is that it’s really the frontline people who have a difficulty with innovation.

Ben: Really? How? Why? Why is that?

Victoria: No, no, no, no, no. Because. Okay, So there are two categories of people who have no problem with with innovation. Of course, the senior leaders, because as you were asking, you know, why is innovation important? I mean, you ask them, they understand. They know. They know that if they don’t have evolved the business with the times, they won’t be there.

Victoria: You know, they won’t be there in the future. The other ones who are really keen on innovation are the frontline, because exactly the same reason we’re talking about them, the ones who are facing the customers every day, we have to, to, to, to deal with their people and they have to deal with the things that they wish you could do.

Victoria: So they’re they are very attuned to what customers and non customers want. So for them, innovation is not is not complicated and they have lots of ideas. I’m always shocked People, always before I stop in the summit, I do a lot on it and I debrief the senior leaders and they say they start with the assumption that people are not very innovative.

Victoria: That’s not true. People have a lot of ideas. Now, the question is, do they feel that people want to share the ideas? Do they feel that they have the permission? Do they feel at the they are safe to to talk about the ideas? So I think for me, it’s really the same time. Because remember also people who execute going to visit the customer with a different agenda or experimenting was a new idea.

Victoria: Great fun.

Ben: For sure.

Victoria: Bring something different in their hive. And I think people, once they they invest that and they know they can do it in a safe environment. That’s why you see, I make a distinction between execution space, right? Innovation, space, execution, space. No error is permitted. You have to deliver high efficiency, high quality cost. Right. When you are innovating. This is a legitimized space where you you can experiment and in that way, I have another answer to the question you raised earlier is that can anybody innovate?

Victoria: Again, I’m not saying that anybody can innovate. I’m saying that anybody should be participating in some innovating activity.

Ben: Okay. All right.

Victoria: I it’s very different from saying that everyone in the company would find that breakthrough insight or whatever. But and by the way, I should tell you that you never know who’s going to have that insight.

Ben: Right.

Victoria: And that’s why it’s very important for innovating to happen as a key. It’s a team sport. And so anybody in the firm could represent the department as part of a cross-disciplinary team. You can be the person who works with a cross-functional team trying to innovate a product or service. You being an h.r. Person have a lot to contribute.

Victoria: You can bring the prospect a different perspective. You see, this is the important thing about innovation is that you need different perspectives. And if you tell people, please feel free to talk about your own experience. I very often tell people to bring in, you know, new recruits in an innovation team, bring a fresh perspective to see if you can bring in students in your city only have you don’t need to have only, you know, experts.

Victoria: You know, I have like for instance, in B2B, I found some companies who are very smart at bringing in the team, people who retired from the customers organization. I thought that was very brilliant because these are people who are retired, right? Yeah, they know the customer because they used to work there. So you bring them in as very good specialist, but bringing an intern, bringing a summer, a summer school, you know, so some student is doing a summer job.

Victoria: I think they can bring something different. They have a different perspective. And that’s what is important in innovation.

Mark: It’s that’s awesome. Yeah. Well, then, you know, there’s a lot of podcasts out there and a lot of them start the first ten or 15 minutes of the show, just getting to know the guest. And we innovated in our own way by doing the 62nd Lightning round at the end. So are you ready for that?

Victoria: we are already there. Where?

Ben: There it goes.

Mark: Time flies when you’re having fun, right?

Victoria: And now here’s a reminders advantage. Lightning round. It’s a.

Mark: Here we go. We’re put in 60 seconds on the clock. What’s your favorite business book and why?

Victoria: Okay, so it’s inspiration to all the work I’ve been doing. It’s called Blue Ocean Strategy, and that was a real departure from traditional, you know, strategy, which was great ocean competitive strategy, and opened the door to really innovating and creating disruption in your industry. So this is my favorite.

Mark: If you weren’t an innovation consultant, what do you think you’d be doing?

Victoria: Well, actually, I know I would have been an English teacher.

Mark: What do you not very good at?

Victoria: making quick decisions. My wife told me I’m a terrible person. She made 4429 to go shopping. It takes me forever now to find to make the final decision. Your room.

Mark: Your desk or your car. Which would you clean first?

Victoria: I’m sorry to say, it’s my desk.

Mark: What’s your biggest pet peeve.

Victoria: That pet peeve? Well, I’m sorry. You have to explain to me.

Mark: it’s okay. We’ll skip. We’ll go to something else. Do you apply the five second rule to dropped food?

Victoria: my God. I mean, you have to explain to me. This is maybe.

Ben: I think we should leave all this in. I think.

Victoria: That’s right. Sorry. I’m sorry. I’m. It’s a.

Ben: Little silly on.

Victoria: Two fronts. Yeah, it’s great.

Ben: It’s been. This has been awesome. We really appreciate it.

Victoria: Very sorry. I should have.

Ben: no, no, not at all. It’s going to be fun. Leave it at that. I’m you know, that’s the. That’s the thing about, like, travel. You can get to know new cultures, right? You know, we’re not all the same, so it’s very cool. Now, before I let you go, I want you to share with our listening audience your five words of wisdom and why they resonate with you.

Victoria: Okay, I’ll say them first. Remember to say thank you. Okay. And I think the important Jane is speaking in life. And as you know, I’m in Japan. My life is Japanese. I mean, I lived in Japan for a long time, growing not a I spent also ten years in the U.S. So I recognize that saying thank you is very important.

Victoria: And actually, I would even say learn to say sorry as well. But if you if you don’t mind, I would like to kind of link it to the book as well, please, because I product and I include this in my own training to teach me the languages, to say thank you. And here’s, here’s the logic. When somebody is in execution mode, as you know, they are, you know, totally the procedure.

Victoria: Their boss can know at any time if they’re performing well, their job or not. And they even sometimes have very strict KPIs. But when you are innovating, when you innovate in space, you cannot you cannot observe. This is something you cannot observe, you cannot maybe you cannot know that somebody on your staff, maybe the person answering the phone, you know, has an idea about how to do his or her job differently.

Victoria: And but you would never know. So very often people are a little intimidated, maybe shy. They they don’t know if people want their boss wants to hear their ideas, so they play it safe. So that’s why for me, I realized that when people go to the boss and say, Boss, I have an idea. Fundamentally, they taking a big risk.

Victoria: Emotionally, I’m talking. Right? Taking a big risk. So if you understand when they come to you, they are actually with a new idea. They are actually giving you a gift.

Ben:

Victoria: See, when they say boss, I have an idea. They’re taking a big risk. So I guess. And what do you do? What do you do when you receive a gift?

Ben: Say thank you.

Victoria: Thank you. So I always tell people, whenever somebody comes to you with an idea, you remember, they’re taking a risk and you know, they’re hesitating and all that. Please, however bad the idea can be, just say thank you. Thank you for bringing me your ideas.

Ben: Think. that’s great. That’s great. Ben. Now, if our people if our listeners want to know more about your book Built to Innovate or you or where would they go to find out more?

Victoria: Well, me, they can find me on the internet. No difficulty for the book. We have a website, so it’s DTI built to build, to innovate the book dot com DTI dot com. Actually it works also was built to innovate of good dot com and then you can find it I mean we’re talking about business in the US you can find it on Amazon you can get it.

Victoria: All right great Yeah great.

Ben: Well very thought provoking and and it’s exciting to hear about how to get people involved and I loved some of the listening steps you explain. So thank you so much for being here. This has been.

Victoria: Great. It’s really funny when so fast.

Ben: Yeah.

Mark: Thanks for now. You can go get some sleep because you’re in Japan.

Victoria: Yes.

Mark: All right. Thanks, Ben.

Victoria: I thank you so much. It’s lovely.

Ben: Didn’t you love his example about sending the Philips scientists to live? Yeah. You know, it makes me think for our company, right? We should go and be spending and everybody should go and spend a day or two following a remodel or around, you know, ride along half the day with the production manager, just really do a deep dive into their companies.

Mark: I like it. Can I pick the company I go to? Yes. I really think I already know a couple I want to go to.

Ben: Yeah, Driving distance, pal.

Mark: Yeah, that’s that’s great.

Ben: The other thing he was talking about is that innovation is not about problem solving is about problem finding.

Mark: Yeah. And you know, that’s the thing too, that kind of popped out at me that I don’t think we really touched on enough, but innovation, again, that word makes it sound like this big, huge, grandiose thing, right? Like, here’s an iPod that never existed before.

Ben: Right.

Mark: But, you know, innovation can be even in small things. I can’t think of specific example at the moment, but I’ve seen where like just some some carpenter on a job has constantly runs into a problem of maybe a cabinet door getting dinged or something. And he comes up with some hack, you know, like these little life hacks or something that that prevent that from happening.

Mark: And those even those little things are innovations in your company that save time, save money, save all this stuff. And you need to make sure that you’re getting that out of these people that might just be doing it themselves because they learned about it. And so they just do it to the, you know, for themselves, Right.

Ben: Spreading it through the right organization.

Mark: So encourage them to share these little tips, these little hacks that they’ve come up with to to save time, save money and all that stuff. It’s it’s all innovation, right? Yeah.

Victoria: Yeah. And again, the last thing he talked about was saying thank you to your employees who come to you with these ideas. You know, if they’re not an idea that you want to implement, in the end, the fact that they make that risk, say thank you. Encourage them to do more.

Mark: Yeah, well, I like how he put it. He said it’s a gift. Yeah, this is a gift that someone’s bringing to you. And what do you say when you get a gift, right? Yeah. I mean, that was. That was well put. Yeah. So that was great. We want to. Thank Ben. He’s probably hitting the sack right now because he’s in Japan.

Mark: Right. And we want to thank them for sharing the insights to his work. I can’t wait to finish it. I’m only a part of the way through it. And we want to thank you for listening week in and week out. I’m Mark, Harare.

Victoria: And I’m Victoria Downing. See you next time. This has been another episode of Power Tips Unscripted The Remodelers Guide to Business Visit w w w dot Remodelers advantage dot com. To learn more about Roundtable, our World-Class Peer Advisory Program. There you can also find information about our business consulting services, upcoming life events and much more. And finally, don’t forget to subscribe to the show and comment on iTunes.