Mark: Today on Power Tips Unscripted. We talked to Tim Faller, senior consultant for Remodelers Advantage. Tim’s going to tell us all about one special technique that’s sure to put a smile on your client’s face every time. Can’t wait to hear it. You’re about to. On this week’s episode of Power Tips Unscripted. Come up to Barry Manilow. Know that you read his wardrobe.

Victoria: Hi. I’m your host, Victoria Downing, and welcome to Power Tip Unscripted. I’m here with my co-host Mark Harari, who’s VP and chief marketing officer here at Modelers Advantage. Hey, Mark.

Mark: Hey, everybody.

Victoria: We’re here to talk about tips, tactics and techniques to help you build a strong and profitable remodeling company. And today, I’m really excited about the person we’re going to interview, because he’s one of the newer members of the Remodelers advantage team. And I’m he’s brought a ton to the table on that. Is Tim Faller to Tim Speed. Hey, everybody.

Victoria: Tim’s been in the industry as a consultant in the industry for over 20 years, and he is known as the guru of production, or we call him the the master of Production. He is the author of The Lead Carpenter Handbook. He’s a facilitator for a lot of our peer groups, including those of our for our production managers and we’re just delighted to have him aboard.

Victoria: So welcome to the podcast, Tim.

Tim: Hey, thank you very much, Victor. I am thrilled to be a part of this. And, everybody that’s ever heard me speak knows I love talking about it.

Victoria: So here we go. So, you know, I asked you for a topic that you felt was really apropos in today’s world, something that’s really been on the forefront of our members and your clients minds. And you chose one that I thought was pretty interesting. Tell us about it.

Tim: Well, zero punch list is what I want to, you know, share with you today. And probably 15 years ago, I laughed at people who, you know, talked about doing this. It seemed like such an unrealistic, dream in the world. I was living in. And, probably five years ago, it started coming back up again. And so I’ve been paying closer attention to people that are doing it and trying to put together a plan or a system, if you will, for making it happen.

Victoria: So define it for me. What the heck is zero punch?

Tim: Okay, well, what we’re not talking about is no list at all. I think almost everybody knows that at some point in time, lists are a critical way to make sure you get things done and that you don’t forget things. So what we’re really talking about is that when the client actually walks through the project at the end with sales or whoever it is that’s doing that final walk, there is no list.

Tim: And the other thing that it means is that we are not asking the client to ever make a list. It just seems like an incredibly crazy idea for us to sort of set the client up for this expectation that we are going to leave things undone unless they find them. And so the idea is that when we do have a list, it’s not the client who’s making it for us.

Victoria: So do you really think that that’s how some people thought that we’re not going to fix it if the client doesn’t notice it or doesn’t add it to their list? I mean, that’s not how a punch list. That’s not what a punch list was meant to be in the in the beginning, was it?

Tim: No, it’s not meant to be that. But the the critical thing is what is the reality, not what we intended for it to be. And so I think if most people go back and look at the lists that are made in the walk through with the client, they will find that 90, maybe 95% of every item on that list could have been seen by somebody before the walk through and taking care of things like, outlet covers, receptacle covers that are a little bit crooked.

Tim: A door stopper, one door stopper. And I and this is not just me making this up, this is me when I was a production manager. So this is this is reality. One door stopper missing. Somebody could have seen that if they just paid better attention. So it’s not like we’re deliberately trying to leave stuff, but I have heard people say and I’ve said it myself, let’s just leave that for the punch list.

Tim: And and so we actually are leaving unsaid finished work for the client to find and add to the punch list. And for those people who are listening, I’d be really surprised if there aren’t some people out there saying that in reality, when they walk through with the client, they are saying, you know what? If they don’t put it on the list, we don’t have to do it.

Tim: That sounds terrible, but I think that’s part of the mentality.

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: Okay. So you’re saying the punch list turns into kind of a safety net just to like, everything can just drop into it.

Tim: That’s that’s exactly safety net. Perfect. Perfect. Way to look at it, Mark to.

Victoria: Why is that a bad thing? Why is it a bad thing to let the client find a few things? You know, obviously they don’t want him to have the attitude of not fixing it, but yeah.

Tim: Yeah. So it’s a bad thing because it perpetuates the stereotype that contractors are just trying to take it for your money. And it it’s a trust factor. It’s something that, if it continues to breathe the atmosphere, you have to watch the contractor. And so what I’ve tried to get my clients, our clients to understand is if they can get the client to truly believe that the contractor is looking out for them and their best interests, it makes the entire job a whole lot more smoothly.

Tim: And so some of the things that I think are important to do, if they’re done well throughout the project, then you get down to the end and you don’t have the client looking for those nitpicky little thing.

Victoria: Okay, so how do you get started doing this and who does it? How do you make sure everything gets done?

Tim: Okay. So the the the big thing is that it’s a company culture. So it has to start with sales. So typically and I know from my own experience as well as working with a lot of companies that typically in the sales process there’s an explanation of how we’re going to, you know, do our financial draws. And it’s almost always in the context of we’re going to get this much, this much, this much.

Tim: And then at the punch list, after the list is created, we will get this final draw, or after the list is created and then finished. And so right from day one, our sales teams unexpectedly are actually, creating an environment where the client says, okay, I have to make a list. So from the very beginning, sales has to say, you know, there isn’t going to be a list.

Tim: And then right on down through from the lead carpenters, project managers, everybody right down to the people who are actually doing the work, trade contractors, everybody has to adopt an attitude that says there is not going to be a list. So if we create a list, it becomes before that time and therefore there’s no list for the client.

Victoria: Okay.

Mark: So so just a quick question. So I’m sure there’s a couple out there. At least a few listening. Think you know they might be a little cash flow strapped okay. So to happen time to time. So what do you say to those guys where it’s like, man, you know, I need the last draw. I got the bills coming, and I need that draw.

Mark: Let’s just put this stuff on the punch list so I can get that money. Like, that’s number one for me. What do you say?

Tim: Well, what I would say is create the list far enough ahead on your own so that when you get to that final walkthrough, there isn’t any list anymore. So what I recommend to people is about 80% of the way through the project. The job manager, whether it’s a lead carpenter or a project manager, goes ahead and makes a total list of every little detail that has to be done before the job is officially done.

Tim: So that would include all the switch like covers. It would include the door stoppers. It would include getting paint off of the door hinges, all the everything that has to be done. Obviously at 80%, there’s some big stuff that has to be done. All the light fixtures still have to be set, cleared on the list. And then what happens is you start working down the list, you start crossing stuff off as you go through.

Tim: Now, another technique that is really critical is that you actually get the client involved in the list. Now, I’ve said it a couple of times and I want to reiterate it. The client doesn’t make the list, but maybe at a weekly meeting you say, what I’d like to do today is walk the job with you and show you the list that I’ve created.

Tim: Right? That will that will finish this job up. And oh, by the way, if there’s something else you see that I don’t have on my list, please tell me, because we really do want to end this job without any kind of a list left over. And so what we’re doing is we’re creating a list, we’re engaging the client in the list, but instead of having them create the list on a blank piece of paper, we we go ahead and have them add to our already existing list.

Tim: So that’s what gets us to the end, so that when we actually do walk on the day that we’re supposed to walk, we get the check and cash flow is not a problem.

Victoria: So other than lists, what are some other key elements to making this process functional in a company?

Tim: Okay, so a couple other things. Very quickly here. Use checklists. Checklists help us focus on individual, activities and, and really good supervision of our sub trades is really critical. I think that in and of itself is where many, many of the items come from in terms of our our final lists and so carefully examining their work at the end of every time, every phase of their work will get us much, much closer to that.

Tim: Another thing that that is really key is a couple of sets of eyes. So if I’m your lead carpenter, even if I’m the world’s best lead carpenter, I got job lined in the course of things. So one of the things that’s being really talked about a lot is having another lead carpenter come on my job and actually help me make a list.

Tim: And then maybe the production manager comes on and helps me make an addition to the list. So the more sets of eyes you have on it, the better off you’re going to be in terms of getting it down to a workable list.

Victoria: Okay, so then what do you do about back orders and things like that?

Tim: Okay. So this is a critical thing because sometimes we do actually have these problems of the back order that, you know Fossen just didn’t come in. We put a temporary one in place. It’s still on the list. So what I really want to encourage people is don’t use the punch list as an excuse if it’s at all possible to get that item, by whatever means you need to.

Tim: In other words, your supplier might say, oh, that’s back order. We can’t get it for six weeks, but there are maybe there are some other channels. If you just spend a little more time, maybe spend another ten bucks, something like that, and get that thing in. So don’t use that as an excuse. But if it’s absolutely necessary, you come to that final meeting with that item on your list and have the client understand that that’s a back order item.

Tim: But in other words, don’t wait for them to tell you that you bring it to their attention.

Victoria: Okay? All right. That makes a lot of sense. So but at some point you have to have a walkthrough, right? Yes. Take the client through it. That all has to happen. How do you handle it. How do you what do you do if they start spotting things okay.

Tim: So quick. Well first of all, hopefully you’ve had them spot everything beforehand. So by getting them involved in walking through before the final walk, you hopefully have gotten them through all the things that they, they think are critical. So what’s happening, with companies that are actually doing this, they’re they’re using that final walkthrough as a celebration or just, wow, look at how amazing this project is.

Tim: And it sounds kind of corny, but there’s at least one company that I know of that’s actually bringing cake and balloons to the walk through. And they may just enjoy, you know, the process of walking through and saying, look at this amazing space because they’ve taken care of everything beforehand. So that’s what I would encourage companies to do, really see this as not a place to catch items.

Tim: What we’re going to do at this walk through is we’re going to talk with the client, we’re going to talk about how great things are, and we’re going to go from there. The the thing that I the way that I get to this is you any other product that you buy from anybody, when you finally take delivery of it, nobody’s going to hand your roll the blue tape and say, go around and mark everything that’s wrong with your product, and we’ll fix it before you, before you actually accept it.

Tim: Nobody does that, right. They talk about how great it looks. This is fantastic. I’m so glad you made this choice, all those kinds of things. And that’s what makes the end of the job so exciting for a client rather than, hey, you know, you just spent $100,000 and here’s 20 things that aren’t done yet.

Victoria: Are there new terms or new names for things that you recommend to get us to change that mentality? I mean, even the final walk through, is there another.

Tim: Yeah. Well, what this company that I’m referring to, they call it a celebration walk through. I think every company has to kind of get a term, you know, for themselves, whatever they’re comfortable with. I think that’s a whole mind shift. I’m trying really hard to never say punch list again. I, I want to say completion list. I want to say, you know, pre complete whatever kind of thing we need to get.

Tim: But just that whole concept of getting it out of the mentality is huge and find something else to do. In terms of that final walk.

Victoria: Okay. So what are some of the steps that people should do to start to implement this, and how long did it take, do you think?

Tim: Okay, so I know from my experience it’s taking companies probably a year to get it really get it really working. And I know in the course of all that you may kind of get discouraged and go, wow, this this won’t work. Like keep it up. Other companies I know have said, okay, we’re shooting for ten for the next 5 or 6 jobs, eight jobs.

Tim: We’re going to try to get our list down to ten or less. And then another company that I’m familiar with that their goal was five. Now I’ve kind of pushed them a little bit and said, you know, you got it down to five, go for the zero, man. I mean, don’t be content with the five. But if you work your way down and then you analyze why, why are those ten things still on there?

Tim: And is there a way we could have eliminated them? And why do we have these five things, and is there a way to eliminate them? And then eventually you can get it down to that zero. The other thing to watch out for is once you get there, it’s still work. You have to constantly work at it. It doesn’t just automatically happen.

Tim: It’s something that you make happen rather than just let it happen.

Victoria: It does seem that the use of a checklist would that you develop that it might again, it might take you a year for a thorough checklist, but seems like that would save tons of time zone. You’re right into the problem areas.

Tim: It does. And I actually went to the trouble of putting together a completion list, checklist and things like door stoppers and, and paint on hardware. And, you know, those kind of things are on there to kind of make the individual using it to actually focus their attention on those things rather than standing in the middle of the room.

Tim: Kind of looking around going like, wow, this looks really good. Anything, any time like that. The other thing is, put yourself in the position where the client’s going to be, stand in front of the bathroom mirror with the lights on and see what you see behind you.

Victoria:

Tim: Sit down on the toilet and see what they’re going to see while they’re sitting on the toilet. These are all kind of standard things in the kitchen. Take a seat and sit down and look up under the cabinets. You see what the client’s going to see because those are all the things they’re going to that are going to pop up when the client starts using the space.

Victoria: All right. That’s awesome.

Mark: Tim, do you think what do you think about as far as the, should there be incentives involved with this or anything like that? Or.

Tim: I think the incentive probably for most feel staff is that the client’s going to be delighted. Yeah. I mean, a big part of the motivation for many of us is I want my client to love me, and they’re going to love you if you’re in and out of there. You know, when you say you’re going to be in and out of there, I think it would be appropriate if a business owner wants to, to give out something that says, congratulations, you did it.

Tim: It’s not really an incentive so much as a reward.

Mark: Like a recognition.

Tim: Yeah, like a recognition. Yes. Exactly. That’s that’s probably a better term for.

Victoria: Yeah. So if all the companies that you work with and I know there’s hundreds, what percent do you think have embraced this philosophy even if they’re not quite there yet?

Tim: Well, I don’t know, maybe 5 or 6, 10% at this point. But I will say this, when I go to visit a company to do consulting with them, almost always, this is the last segment we talk about, kind of like we’re ending the consulting and we, you know, use this segment as an end. And people are excited about it.

Tim: And I hope it’s not just the excitement that I have wears off on other people, but they’re excited about this idea because we’re all tired of getting to the end of the job. And the list goes on for a week goes two weeks, three weeks, four weeks, six weeks. Yeah, it’s a huge financial drain and it’s a huge emotional drain.

Tim: Nobody wants that going on. And so the fact that people are doing it helps people believe that it can be done right.

Victoria: That’s half the battle right there, isn’t it?

Tim: Sure is. It’s what’s between the ears. So we call it the head trash.

Victoria: You got it. That’s right. Get rid of that trash.

Tim: It starts right between the ears.

Mark: You know what? It’s that time on the show.

Unknown And now here’s the remodelers advantage. Lightning round.

Mark: It’s a traffic. You excited?

Tim: I’m excited.

Mark: All right, I’m putting 60s on the clock. Here come your questions. You ready? Got it. Let’s do it. What’s your favorite business book and why?

Tim: Okay. It’s got to be the author’s principle. It’s the subtitle is developing a Culture of Accountability. And I think it has the best view of accountability. Any that I’ve seen anywhere.

Mark: If you weren’t a consultant and facilitator, what do you think you’d be doing?

Tim: I don’t know that there is another job I could be doing, but I joke about the fact that if I learned earlier that you could make a living fishing, I’d probably be doing that.

Mark: What do you not very good at?

Tim: I am not very good at artistic things like painting a picture or sculpting or that sort of thing, which is kind of interesting because I love putting buildings together.

Mark: Your room, your desk or your car. Which do you clean first?

Tim: It’s got to be the desk because I don’t let the other stuff gets messy.

Mark: What do you think of garden gnomes?

Tim: Garden gnomes? I think they’re ridiculous.

Mark: How old is the oldest pair of shoes you own?

Tim: Oh, at least ten years, maybe longer.

Mark: Estimate how many windows are in New York.

Tim: How many windows are in New York? 82 billion.

Victoria: Well, Tim, as always, some wonderful tips and tactics for people to use to improve the results are getting from their business end. There’s nothing better than a delighted client who will tell lots and lots and lots of others about it, right?

Tim: That’s for sure. That’s for sure.

Victoria: So thank you so much for being here. And before we wrap it up, it is time for your fun.

Mark: Wait a second. So, Tim, you got some big news to announce, don’t you?

Tim: I do, Steve Wheeler and I are going to be doing a podcast called the Tim Faller Show. I’m going to be hitting a lot of topics that have, relationship to production management. And, I’m really, really psyched about being able to do this, to share this information with people.

Victoria: And their.

Tim: Guests.

Victoria: Are me. There’s no one better than you to do it.

Tim: Oh, I hope so. We’re going to be bringing in some guests, and I think they’re going to be the key to making it really successful. These are all people that, have production management experience in some form, whether it’s in remodeling. And we’re even going to try to get some folks from outside the industry to come in and help us out with, setting some challenges for people.

Mark: Well, I’m going to put a link to, to your, your podcast, below this in the, in the blog post. And make sure everybody signs up for that and gets it on their app, too, because we definitely want you listening to Tim. Obviously, a fountain of knowledge.

Victoria: All right. So thank you again very much. And I’d love for you to share your five words of wisdom with our listeners. So let’s have a okay.

Tim: Here we go. You ready? Yep. Titles are irrelevant. Character counts.

Victoria: Oh right. That’s a good one. That’s a good one. And I totally agree with.

Mark: That one 100%. Very good. All right.

Victoria: Thanks so much Tim. Appreciate it. Talk soon.

Tim: All righty.

Mark: Thanks. Thank you.

Tim: So much.

Victoria: Man. He knows his stuff doesn’t he.

Mark: It’s always you know, you can’t lose with, having Tim on.

Victoria: A no can. He’s just as eloquent and on point every single time. I think I’m excited to listen to his podcast myself.

Mark: I love I tell you what, I love the idea of changing the names of all these things so that it’s already kind of just baked in, you know? I mean, there is no final walkthrough. There’s this celebration. Yeah. You know.

Victoria: Talk about a change of attitude.

Mark: Right. And there’s no there’s no punch list. There’s some other thing he’s got to still figure out, but there’s, you know, it’s that that alone kind of sets the bar. It’s it’s brilliant.

Victoria: I know it’s making me think about all the different ways we could put those same principles into place here.

Mark: It’s like it’s good stuff.

Victoria: Yeah. For sure. So I think.

Mark: I think you might have found somebody as smart as me.

Victoria: You know.

Mark: Which is pretty fascinating, man. Tim’s right up there.

Victoria: He’s pretty good.

Mark: Yeah. All right. So, I am the humble Mark Harari.

Victoria: And I’m Victoria Downing. Thank you for listening in to power tips Unscripted. I will see you next week.

Mark: See you next time.