Steve: Welcome to the Tim Faller show, where production is paramount, and we discuss the tools, time and people associated with getting jobs done and making a profit.

Steve: In. In honor of Women in Construction Week today on the Tim Faller Show, we will be talking about gender inclusion and construction. Without the special guest and the Kraft of Kraft Custom Construction, Inc. in Salem, Oregon, alongside Tim Faller. I’m your co-host, Steve Wheeler. Here is The Tim Faller Show.

Tim: Hi, everyone. Tim Faller here, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Faller Show. As always, send us your ideas, give us thoughts, or help us, keep this thing going. We’re creeping up on 200 episodes, which has been a lot of fun for me. Just want to say thanks to everybody for all your feedback, all the times that you’ve stopped me somewhere at a trade show and said, thank you for the podcast.

Tim: So just want to make sure you know, I appreciate that and I appreciate your participating with us on a weekly basis. So if you’re a regular listener, obviously you’ve heard me say it a number of times to just tell me what you’re thinking. Tell me what’s on your mind. And about a month ago or so, I received an email from a listener that expressed some concern that on one of the podcast, I think it was labeled Breaking the Gender barrier, that she felt like we didn’t address the issue.

Tim: quite strong enough. And so obviously, I got back in touch with her. And as we went back and forth, on her comment, it became clear that there are actually two things going on. the first one being that she was a is a young woman, in this industry, and she’s working in her father’s company.

Tim: And so the way I took that was two strikes against her. And so, this male dominated world, she’s actually in the fields. and so the male dominated world. And she’s the boss’s daughter. And so I started trying to to think of, like, is there a way we can, try to address, some of this now?

Tim: In some ways, they’ve got it right. I think, she’s coming into the business, you know, not at the top and barking out orders, and I’m in charge. And you have to listen to me. All that kind of stuff. She’s spending time in the field. she’s doing all kinds of different aspects of the work that’s going on.

Tim: but still, she is experiencing what the only word I can describe it is sexist language. Her, interaction. And in a way that makes her feel like she’s not equal with all the guys that she’s around. And so I started thinking, like, who do I know that might be in a similar, situation? And so I got in touch with our guest today.

Tim: I just want to really emphasize that no two situations are alike. every company is a little bit different. And so as our guest is sharing information today, it may not be true at her company, but we’re trying to get feedback from her on being a woman in this industry and being the daughter of the boss, and how that impacts the relationship that she has with other people in the company.

Tim: So, Steve, let’s jump in and see where this takes us.

Steve: All right. So Emma Kraft is the business operations manager at Kraft Custom Construction Inc., located in Salem, Oregon. The company was started by Emma’s father, Robert Kraft, in 1982. Robert grew the company throughout the 80s and 90s to employ around 16 employees. However, after some time, he realized bigger wasn’t always better when it came to providing highly personalized service to his clients, he made a conscious decision to downsize the company in 2001 and focus on completing fewer, higher revenue projects.

Steve: Today, Kraft is a design build company and does remodeling additions and historic restoration work. Kraft employees five full time employees and completes around 2 to 2.5 million in revenue annually. Emma joined the company at the end of 2019 to start learning the family business, with the goal of taking over after her dad’s retirement. Her background is in social work, and after college she spent a handful of years working with underprivileged Latino youth before returning back to her roots.

Steve: She brings a fresh and different perspective to the business, not only being part of the new generation, but also as a woman in a male dominated industry. Welcome to the show, Emma.

Emma: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Tim: So, that was pretty good. Description of of Kraft, custom construction there in the introduction. But just give us a little bit more about what you’re role is there. What do you do. What what do you parts of the business do you touch on a regular basis. And just so people get an idea about who you are and what you do.

Emma: So when I first started working with the company, because I don’t have any construction background and it was somewhat new, I was kind of in all different areas of it. So I reached shout out to my dad and we went out to the jobsite every once in a while to check in. and I worked closely with our office manager, like on admin tasks, and most recently I’ve been taking over a lot more of what my dad does.

Emma: And, just the financials and business management, office admin as well, and, marketing sales. so, like my title business operations manager. So all the stuff with the operations side of it.

Tim: So what’s the actual schedule, for you to to be taking over the business? In other words, dad, sales off into the sunset and enjoys retirement. what what is the actual schedule for that?

Emma: so I started working in the company, in December 2019. So about three years ago, and my dad, is that his target retirement date? as December 2023. So by the time we hit that mark, I’ll be about five years in the company. And right now, we’re working on our transition plan and, getting all of our documents together and what that will look like with, you know, the sale and transition of stock and this and that.

Emma: But it will be about five years when he’s gone.

Tim: All right. So, so let’s jump right into the topic. so we’re talking about a couple of different things. And, and really what we want to do is create a more inclusive environment for everybody. And we’ve Toms and I have talked that this really isn’t just about gender, although it is response specifically to, this question that came from a listener.

Tim: But it’s also it’s it’s minorities in general. And women are definitely minorities in this business. Not in our world, obviously, but in this business. And so it might be race, it might be, other factors, but as we’re looking at this thing, what are some of the challenges that you see, particularly for women coming into this business? And in some ways it’s other things other than, the maybe the professional side of it, but maybe in the field as well as other parts of.

Emma: Well, I think like you mentioned, women are somewhat the minority because it’s always been kind of a male dominated industry. so maybe in the field there’s or in the office there’s more females when it comes to admin or design. But in the field, you know, you’re not looking around and seeing a lot of people like you, a lot of other women.

Emma: and I think that it’s, it’s surprising for men to see, like, if I’m walking into the job site for them to maybe take me seriously or think that I belong there. a lot of times they might mistake me as being whether a homeowner or a daughter of the homeowner, when really I’m part of the company, or I might be the one needing to give them direction in whatever way.

Emma: so I think it’s just it’s a surprise and it’s not maybe the norm. And so, people aren’t used to it and they have their own response in that way.

Tim: Yeah. So tell me this phrase, I don’t see people like me, again, is very common in, in talking about the inclusion of all kinds of people. But tell me how that impacts a woman when she might want to join a company and knowing that when she gets out on the jobsite, she’s not going to see people like her.

Tim: what? How does that, again, how does that impact the way you see your job?

Emma: I mean, I think it’s just important to be confident and know why you join that job. I mean, if you bring a certain skill or you’re interested in a certain topic, that’s one thing that has been something I need to work on is just really being confident and knowing that, hey, I’m doing this and this is, what I want my future to be like and making sure that when you when you enter into that and that environment that you’re showing that and.

Tim: Yeah. Okay. So it feels a little bit, like, those of us who are sort of in and I’ll just say white males, just don’t even see the problem. And, and I guess what I’d like to try to do is, I mean, for example, your comment about, seeing people like you, like when I walk onto a job site, I see people like me, you know, when I walk into a business, many, many of the businesses, the owner is a man.

Tim: And so I see people like me. So I’d like to see if we can explore a little bit what some of those subtleties are, that we may not even be aware of, that we’re just going through our day and we listen to a podcast like this and we go like, what are they talking about? There’s no problem out there.

Tim: And so is there anything like that that you can kind of share with us that might help us get a grip on what some of those things are, or maybe being more aware of how we interact with other people.

Emma: Yeah, and it’s funny because as you were saying, that specific situation came to mind. that happened recently. We had a trade contractor come to our office and we were having a meeting with them. And even though I was in the room with my dad, I was in the room and even asking questions and participating. And every time they responded, everything was directed back at my dad, whether it was something he said or whether it was something I said, but it was just kind of this, like weird circular thing that he wasn’t responding directly to me.

Emma: and then at the end of the conversation, you know, he gave a firm handshake to everyone else at the table. And then when he gave the handshake to me, it was a really light kind of just touching of my fingertips, you know, to to sign off. And I felt that that was, you know, I’ve always been raised like hard five no faces make a really firm handshake and that’s I hear like a respectful to the person that you’re talking to.

Emma: and so I remember after that meeting just feeling like, why didn’t he talk to me in the same way that as my dad or any other other male sitting at the table? so that was just an example of it. And similarly above, when I, was mentioning getting on to a job site and, you know, it’s directly at my dad or any other male before the attention or conversation is directed at me.

Emma: So, those are just a couple examples of what I’ve been noticing.

Tim: Yeah, those are great because I, you know, again, sitting here, having been around this for a long time, I can think of a lot of reasons why he talked directly to your dad, not to you as as my excuses. Okay. And I think part of this, this real challenge is just being honest with ourselves about our, our own little and I.

Tim: Maybe it’s not the right word, but our own little prejudice. You know, it’s like we have the we pre-judge the situation. And so we’re too quick to sort of dismiss something that’s brought up to us. And so is there any, any way you think men particularly can be more aware of how they come across two women on a job site or even in a business?

Emma: Yeah. And I think actually another important thing to add is that, you know, everyone has their own experience. And when I talk about even that handshake example, you know, I want a firm handshake because I feel that that’s a respectable thing. But there are other women who maybe prefer not to have a really hard fight or a handshake that, you know, hurts their fingers or whatever it may be.

Emma: So, I just wanted to put kind of a caveat of, you know, this is my personal experience. and I guess going back to your question of how to how men should know how to act, where, you know, it’s different with every person, just like when we’re talking about race or gender as in, you know, a transgender person, for example, how do you address them?

Emma: You never know until you ask the person what they prefer. and so I just think it’s reading the room. It’s reading. How are the conversations going so far if a female is is being someone who is leading conversations and really showing that they’re in charge of that meeting? That’s how you I would say that you should address that person in the way that they’re kind of wanting to be addressed.

Emma: so, yeah, just like anything, it’s hard to really know until you ask. And I would just invite people to to whether it’s asking or just being really aware of what that conversation, the dynamic of what’s already been going on.

Tim: You know, I was just thinking that maybe part of it is just the individual exploring, like, like like I did kind of at the beginning of the podcast. You have a title. I have no idea what that title means. So I asked, what do you do? What what is your role? And I think maybe that’s maybe even just something as simple as that, meeting you and then saying like, what are your responsibilities?

Tim: And so that maybe I would be able to then, you know, interact with you on a way that that you reflect your responsibilities in the conversation.

Emma: Right.

Tim: All right. So what would you recommend for women who again, we I got this email from a young woman that said, hey, I’m having this this challenge. And so, guys, I think I hope it’s really clear to all the guys out there listening, pay attention. You know, treat women with respect. if you don’t already, get on with it and do it.

Tim: Okay. but what about for the women that are out there? Is it okay for them to just go like, hey, I don’t get no respect. Like, what’s the problem with those guys? Or is there something the women can actually do to change some of this?

Emma: I think that there’s there’s things that we can do as women. And, I think it also kind of starts at the top or starts maybe with our fathers or the people who are in power who can pave the way a little bit for us as well. so, for example, like in our business, my dad has been really great about introducing me to when we go into the field or just even in our office, we’ve been really clear about what our plan is for this transition.

Emma: and he’s asked our team, you know, at times, hey, anything needs to for anything. This topic that’s related to this topic, it needs to go to Emma. Emma is making these decisions. And so he’s paved the way to really say, you know, respect Emma. And she’s here and she has this authority. so I think that’s one really great thing that he’s been doing.

Emma: And when it comes to women, I think, as I mentioned before, it’s like finding out who you are and your identity and being confident in this profession. whether it’s male dominated or any profession that you’re in as working women. we have a lot of different roles that we need to play, and that’s important to just be confident and respectful, of course.

Emma: but just show up and be who you are. And, another somewhat example is when I first started working here, I remember being frustrated about things and going to my dad and saying, you know, so-and-so isn’t doing this or we need to improve this process, or why is this working? And, you know, instead of putting those complaints under someone else stepping up and really owning whatever you you want to change or, you know, making some of those decisions.

Emma: So a lot of it is even though it’s hard and there’s kind of obstacles to overcome, doing the best you can to show up and, and do what you can for yourself because you got to fight for it and show that you are capable.

Tim: Hi. If you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while, you’ve likely heard me refer to our Production Manager roundtables. Many of the people who’ve been on the show have been members of this program, and oftentimes they’re some of our most popular guests. If you’re not familiar with it, a few years back, we took the roundtables concept that has been so popular with Remodelers advantage members and started groups specifically for production managers.

Tim: Very similar format to what the owners are doing, but focused on production issues and really diving into best practices. Among some of the best remodeling companies out there, we meet twice a year for two days. At each meeting, collect and discuss performance metrics for each company, and we support each other throughout the year with micro awards, smaller groups of your peers who meet monthly via zoom to discuss issues and ask for input.

Tim: So whether you are a business owner looking to improve your production team or a production manager that needs help taking your department to the next level, we have a spot for you if you’re interested. If you’re interested in learning more, email me at Tim at remodelers advantage.com and I’ll tell you more about it. So one of the things we talked about before we, you know, started the podcast itself was this idea of at least for your situation, that you just don’t have ten years for everybody to get used to.

Tim: You and, and to understand that you know, what you’re doing and that you are going to run this company. And I thought that was interesting because I it just felt to me like, for both the men and the women involved in a business, this sense of urgency almost is part needs to be part of the equation. Because instead of me as a guy sitting back and going like, well, you know what I mean, what does it matter right now, how I feel?

Tim: Whereas if I know that you’re going to be the boss in two years from now, then I need to adjust my attitude more quickly. And I’m just wondering, I mean, am I did I understand that right when we talked about it? Maybe give a little more on that?

Emma: Yeah, absolutely. I think that, like you said, it’s a really short turnaround that we have the kind of the plan that we have in place and, you know, we don’t have a lot of time for me, too little by little, the kind of making little baby steps. And it was hard for me to come in, you know, again, it’s not this coming in and barking orders and demanding respect and saying, oh, well, I’m the boss’s daughter.

Emma: I definitely had to prove myself. And, you know, it doesn’t just come out magically, but because of the short time line or in anybody’s situation, there’s not a lot of time to just kind of put it to the side and, kind of see how it unravels. I think that it’s important that when people are coming in, whether you’re a daughter or a female, like the time is now, you need to accept it.

Emma: And, you know, be respectful and know that this person deserves just as much attention and respect as any other male or son or someone else coming in in the same situation.

Tim: So maybe, maybe for our listener that that, wrote in maybe part of the solution and maybe for, women in general is to have some sort of a definitive goal that says, oh, this person will be doing this job by this time. And so everybody knows, you know, it may not be the ownership of the company, like in your case, but it might be a lead carpenter or a project manager or something like that.

Tim: So everybody knows that at some point in time, not ten years down the road or not, you know, whenever it seems like the right time. But there’s going to be within a year and a half, this person’s going to be running jobs. That in and of itself would require some respect from everybody else in the company right now.

Emma: One thing that we haven’t been great about, but also, I guess someone good about is, you know, one, three, five year planning. And, you know, not only what does our plan look like. So my dad and I have had our conversations, but at our last, you know, at the beginning of the year, we had meetings with all of our employees to say, hey, this is our plan, and we want to make sure that that actually works and it’s realistic.

Emma: So what are your plans and everyone kind of being on the same page too, so that it’s not a surprise to anyone. It allows the conversation to flow. And I just think it’s important for people to be on the same page so that the dynamic in the company is good.

Steve: Yeah. And, I think there’s like there’s two things at play here. There’s obviously need to get in front of any ignorance that’s happening. But then there’s also a very broad blanket of awareness again, that starts from the top. But, you know, I was somewhere, I don’t know, couple weeks ago. And it was a store and somebody was talking to one of the workers and there was a language barrier.

Steve: So they were trying to get their point across and they were talking louder. And it makes no sense. Right. And there’s a lack of awareness there of what you’re actually doing in the moment. So when somebody is talking around you, you know, it’s it could be a piece of what they’re used to and it’s just new or it’s ignorance.

Steve: Right. And so how do we start from the top? Let it be the owner. But it’s also the people around us. So it’s the younger man. It’s it’s the people within the company that are being the advocate for everyone, you know, race, gender, whatever it is. But to police it, but to also, you know, how do we ingrain in the training the fabric.

Steve: So there’s an HR side but there’s like, yeah, it’s it’s human beings at the end of the day. Right. Anybody that walks through the door, so like of the, you know, 60 plus, however old some of the workers like how do we no matter the age, it really doesn’t matter. how do you think we bring up some of the awareness without calling people out or just letting people be aware of the situation?

Emma: well, I think it’s just communication and empathy and, you know, knowing that everyone kind of comes from their own walk of life and their own experience. And, it’s just it’s an interesting topic that we’re discussing because it’s kind of just this general, like worldly shift that we’re seeing in so many different ways of, you know, it’s not a specific, specifically kind of in construction, the good old boys, where it’s like all these men who get together and prefer one another and this and that, and it’s, you know, just being open that there’s so many different perspectives.

Emma: And I think to knowing that different people bring different strengths. So maybe there’s a new person coming into the group and think about all the different stuff that they can bring. So like with women, for example, communication and talking with homeowners and really getting what it’s like to, you know, live in the space and what their needs are, their challenges in the home.

Emma: Sometimes women can do that a lot better than men because they really listen and they can take the information and then figure out how to bring the solution to, to be. So, I think can I directly to answer your question is like knowing that people who are different bring strengths and understanding what that is and how we can all work together to improve the company as a whole.

Tim: Yeah. I think sometimes this conversation that we’re having, that’s a great point, because I think sometimes again, us guys, you know, if you can’t lift a 16ft two by 12 over your head to the second floor, you’re no good, right? Whereas, people bring different, different, strengths to the equation. In other words, sometimes we go like strength is what makes this job work versus other strengths, if you will.

Tim: Like you mentioned like communication, understanding people. Yeah. You still have to be able to lift some boards and carry some logs and you know, that kind of thing. But at the on the other side of it, you know, there are other strengths that people bring. I love that point. I thought that was fantastic. All right. Well we’re going to wrap up here.

Tim: Maybe maybe we can just summarize a little bit because we’ve gone in a lot of different directions. So Emma, why don’t you start maybe with a little summary from your viewpoint and maybe Steve, if you give us a little summary and I’ll give a little summary and maybe tie this thing together, because we’ve gone into a lot of different points, which was part of the reason for doing this podcast was to getting get this conversation going.

Emma: Yeah. So I think, again, speaking just from my personal experience, and it’s different for everyone. But, being a young female daughter, family member coming into a business, figuring out who I am, what I want to do, what are my goals, and being good about my own identity so that I can be confident and come into a new space and really kind of own what I’m doing.

Emma: And, I think it’s important to have people on your team. So your father or whoever else in the family that you’re working with, having them kind of stand up for you and say, hey, this is what’s going on, and we all need to respect this person and welcome them into the team. and I guess the last point is knowing that everyone comes from different backgrounds and brings their own, part to the table.

Emma: And so knowing that if everyone’s the same, we don’t really there’s no, kind of change or improvement, really. But when you get new ideas, there’s a lot that can be done.

Tim: Cool. Steve.

Steve: Yeah. So I think as as we are ever changing in the, in our world, in our industry, you know, it’s it’s making sure that, the job descriptions are inclusive, that everything is inclusive to make sure that we are, opening up positions in construction for all walks of life. Let it be gender, race, because, the more the better the industry gets.

Steve: And, I think internally it’s just an awareness that, you know, to be aware of the way everyone treats each other. And if something doesn’t seem right, then address it with the other person. you know, maybe not in front of people, but but have it, have a conversation that, you know, what they observed wasn’t correct, things like that.

Steve: I mean, I think that’s kind of what I was getting at with kind of the fabric of the company is, making sure people know what’s not acceptable behavior. Right?

Tim: Yeah. And I guess, I guess I just like to kind of go back to the communication part of it, opening up the communication. And then I would just encourage all the guys out there, just be aware of how you come across to other people that are not like you. And again, mostly this is about, women coming into our work space, being part of the team, whether it’s in the office or whether, you know, ownership or whether it’s on site.

Tim: But one of the things that maybe we could do is just interact with many of the other women in our world and ask them to tell us how we come across so that we get some feedback on what are the little things we say that, you know, I don’t know, put I don’t even know how to say it, but that that puts that barrier up there that we’re not even aware of.

Tim: And so maybe that’s something that we need to be doing as men in this business. Well, Emma, thank you so much. I know this wasn’t just a straightforward like, answer these five questions. I know it was challenging for me. Hopefully everybody understands I’m challenged by this. I know it was challenging for you to give us some good, illustrations of this, but I sure appreciate you’re taking some time.

Tim: And, just starting this, helping us start this conversation.

Emma: Of course. Thank you so much for inviting me. And it was kind of an honor to be able to share a little bit of what I’m going through. So thank you both.

Tim: Fantastic.

Steve: Thank you so much, Emma. So, Tim, as we continue, you know, talking about this subject and I appreciate first and foremost, I mean, what we’ve been talking about is awareness is Emma calling us and saying, hey, I think maybe you didn’t get it correctly, or maybe we need to add on to, what we’re talking about with women in construction or the inclusion in construction.

Steve: So I think to start off, you know, her her bringing that to our attention is fantastic. She’s excellent guest. And, yeah, I think we’ve we’ve kind of talked a lot about the fact that it’s, it’s about us being aware and open to the various changes in construction.

Tim: So one of the things that’s always true about human interaction is it’s not ever only about one side of the interaction. And so I think what I heard, MSA, for the women that are listening, be confident, have a path, you know, and let every everybody needs to know what your path is. What are your goals? Where are you headed in this industry?

Tim: What do you want to accomplish? Having that confidence that you can do that. And then if there is a side on the other part of this for us guys, just being aware, like I mentioned already, just being aware of how our communication, comes across, to the women that we interact with in this business and making sure that that’s not a barrier, just making sure that we don’t put up barriers and that we are inclusive of many kinds of people.

Tim: But specifically for this, podcast, for the women that we really want to have coming into this business, because we need workers and half of the population is underrepresented in our ranks, and we really need to make it a place where everybody feels included.

Steve: It’s a great way to close. we want to thank Emma for joining us today, Emma Kraft. And we want to thank you for listening to another episode of The Tim Faller Show.

Tim: And remember, at the Tim Faller Show, we’re working really, really hard. Do eliminate that nasty little phrase. It is what it is from your vocabulary.

Steve: I, this has been another episode of The Tim Faller Show. Want to hire Tim and fast track your growth? Visit remodelers advantage.com/consulting to learn more. And if you’d like more information about roundtables, our world class peer advisory program, please send me an email at Steve and Remodelers advantage.com. And of course, don’t forget to subscribe to the show and comment on iTunes.

Steve: Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.