Steve: Welcome to the Tim Faller Show, where production is paramount, and we discuss the tools, time and people associated with getting jobs done and making a profit.

Steve: On today’s episode of The Tim Faller Show, we will be talking about using a talent management test for hiring with the help of a special guest, Ben Reynolds of Kawartha Lakes Construction in Lakefield, Ontario, Canada, alongside Tim Faller. I’m your co-host, Steve Wheeler. Here is Tim Faller show.

Tim: Hello, everyone. Tim Faller here, and welcome to the Tim Faller Show. Don’t forget, keep sending in those ideas about topics as well as guests that we can have on the show. one of our big challenges is keeping up to date every week with a podcast that helps people. So we don’t want to be just talking into the air.

Tim: We want to be doing something that really helps. So help us out by sending us some ideas. Email is Tim at remodelers. advantage.com. Hiring process is a big challenge for you know, I have in my notes for most of us, but it’s probably for everybody. And one of the big challenges is that we build things right.

Tim: That’s what we do. Okay. And so to navigate this complex world with a new person and unknown skills and different attitudes and all of that is very foreign to us. And so to make it even make matters a little bit worse, when we get into that interview, phase, we’re often in, I’m trying to prove myself to you mode, both the company and the applicant.

Tim: So the company’s trying to present this like we’re great. So you want to come work for us? Because we need people. And the applicants got this like, I’m great. And so you really want me kind of thing going on. And so how do you know? How do you know what somebody is or who they are or what they’re, you know, their view of the world.

Tim: What do they really know? What are their true behaviors. And so one part of this is to get a good set of interview questions. And, you know, these been talked about over and over again in many different environments. And then the second part of that is to actually listen to the answers. And and the reason I say that is because everybody out there that’s had a part in hiring has hired somebody.

Tim: It didn’t work out. And then when you go back and replay the tape in your head, you go like, oh yeah, I should have seen this one coming, right? But the reality is we just didn’t listen during that, interview time. But what about skills? Right. And and, I’ve often told people when I ask somebody about skills and they go, oh, I can do everything.

Tim: I just assume they can. I just think that’s impossible. Not everybody does everything super well. But how do we find out about the skills? So today’s guest has put some steps in place that I found interesting while we were talking about it. And so I decided to have Ben back with us. So he was here before for an episode, but come back with us and share some of these ideas with us.

Tim: So let’s get started.

Steve: All right, so Ben Reynolds is the production manager with Kawartha Lakes Construction in Lakefield, Ontario, Canada, an hour and a half east of Toronto. Kawartha Lakes Construction specializes in design, build, and the majority of their projects are second homes or cottages. Their crews often operate in remote areas such as islands or hard to access regions reason regions, and for that reason, the field staff needs to be highly proficient and efficient.

Steve: Culture is their main focus when hiring, as is the drive to learn and grow. Welcome to the show, Ben.

Ben: Thank you. Hey.

Tim: All right, so give us just a little bit more about Kawartha Lakes. How are you set up? what’s your field staff like? And I guess this will kind of get us into the idea of who you have to actually hire.

Ben: Sure. so, during my reign as production manager, I’ve made a lot of mistakes in hiring over the past. And, one of my big mistake, I hired just a warm body to fill a role, and it’s never proven to be a good process. bit me more times than not. now, my main focus is, as, Steve said, hiring on culture.

Ben: If someone has a great culture or great attitude, we can train a lot of the skills. And the other thing is drive and aptitude. So if they’ve got a good drive, but they haven’t been trained in some of the the things that you would call common sense. We can train them in that. we just have to have the right candidate.

Tim: So. So who who exactly are you? hiring. What positions do you have? Like some companies, they just have project managers. And then nobody else on staff. Other companies. And I think you guys, you know, you’ve got multiple positions that you’re actually looking for. What are the, the roles that you actually have to hire for within Kawartha Lakes?

Ben: Right. so, Tim, we are a hybrid company. We do have field positions where we have construction crews. We also have project management. So we’re hiring from all levels, and it really depends on the client or the project on which level we run it, with our own staff, or do we run it through upgrades and just manage the process?

Ben: and therefore the roles that I’m hiring are anyone from laborers all the way through to, project managers or in our case, we call them project coordinators. okay. One of the things in the past, we have a strong, strong background of hiring laborers and training them. And some of those laborers will become our lead carpenters or project managers or even, some of our sales staff down the road.

Ben: So we want to get the right people in at a young age and mentor them to become everything we want them to be.

Tim: So that’s almost like has to be the standard nowadays, because what does everybody say? I just can’t find good help. And the answer to that is you have to create good help and you have to kind of be like, I don’t know if if it’s the right analogy, but like Doctor Frankenstein that says, I’m going to take this person and I’m going to make them into something that I, I want them to be.

Tim: All right. So we’re talking about this thing that you call talent management testing. So give us kind of in a nutshell, what is that?

Ben: Sure. So when, someone comes in and they hand in their resume and they go through the interview process and you answer all the questions, the majority of times they come off sounding really great on paper. they’re a fantastic person. They impress the hell out of you. Then you hire them, they hit the field, and a week later you ask one of the other crew members, hey, how are they doing?

Ben: And they say, why would you hire this guy? This guy can’t do anything. they can’t read the team manager that they. I don’t know where they figured out their layouts from. so many different problems because they haven’t got the skills that they said they did. So, you need to assess where they are. I’ve also hired people at a level higher than what they actually could do.

Ben: And you can never walk anyone back into a lower, paid paycheck. So unfortunately, you lose. Who could have been a good body? You just unfortunately put them in the wrong role to start them off with. So it’s it’s not their fault. It was really your fault.

Tim: So is this so I think I caught it that, this isn’t like the first part of your process. There’s something that happens before hand that you say, okay, this person is, possibly somebody we could hire. Now we’re going to put them through this talent test. Is that is that the way it works?

Ben: That’s correct. The talent test is the final process before I would offer them my position. And, if they might, for example, apply for a senior carpenter role, but when they do their talent task, you find out, well, they’re they’re not really at that level, but you can offer them a position at the junior carpenter role and train them to become that senior carpenter.

Ben: And then you can set, a career advancement program for them. it seems to be a better process. I just hired two people in that exact same predicament. and they’re the right people. I would have hate to lose them. I just have to put some time and invest. Invest some training into them.

Tim: Very good. So I think you might have hit this a little bit, but I just want to kind of lay the groundwork, like why? And I guess maybe to like what was what was going on in your head that you said, I’m going to set up this and I and I appreciate your sending me a copy of your, your process and I looked at it and I went, whoa, this took some time to put this all together.

Tim: What what drove you to do that? And what possessed you to get to the form that it is right now?

Ben: Okay. Well, it was years, Babylonian. And it was, a lot of discussion with the late carpenter carpenters or the project coordinators and saying, hey, what skills would you like to know before someone comes on and what level? And, we work through it. We’ve, we’ve had some tests that really haven’t worked. They, they’ve faded out, and we’ve just evolved other tests and time, it’s taken a long time to come by what I first thought or was told, the idea that come up with the skills testing, it was such a big, daunting task.

Ben: I had no idea where to start from. Yeah. And I yeah. So I as you work through it, it gets easier and easier for every role.

Tim: Okay. So how does this actually work. Who who participates in this process of testing the folks. And we’re going to get in a minute to the some of the details of it. But are you the only one that’s involved in this or is there somebody else from the team involved with this?

Ben: definitely someone else from the team. I, I, I agree, in a team atmosphere, it takes multiple people to pull off every single project. Everyone is extremely important. The other thing is, I don’t want to project to new hires that I’m the be all end up. so I make sure that the lead carpenter or the project coordinator is part of that process.

Ben: I’m I did the first initial phone call. The second interview is with the lead carpenter and project coordinator, and that’s basically it’s almost like the dating game. It’s it’s to see whether or not they fit. how do they answer? Are they comfortable with you? Did they seem to, have your values or your core beliefs as a company?

Ben: Did? And, during that process, I more I sit back and I listen to the answers and I listen to how they how they participate. Once that goes through, then we go into a real scripted interview with, with hard questions all focused on, on our core values and to see how they perform in that. How do they work?

Ben: How do they view themselves in a team environment? And if they make it pass out, then it goes into skills assessment where they actually go and do tangible tasks. And that’s managed by the lead carpenter or the, project coordinator. they supervise it. We just discuss the answers afterwards before I offer them, position.

Tim: So this is really, really cool to get the team engaged in the whole thing. In other words, instead of just you sitting in a dark room with a light over your head trying to figure out what this process is going to be, you got everybody engaged and then you’ve actually got them engaged in the interview process as well as the skill side of it.

Tim: So I think that’s really cool. I also want to comment about this idea of you just sitting back and listening, I mean, one of the things that I have done in the past, along with my wife, is marriage counseling. And it’s very interesting to sit with a couple and not be the person talking with them, but just sitting back and listening.

Tim: You hear so much more about what’s really going on, as opposed to if you’re sitting there trying to think of the next question and think of like, you know, all those kinds of things. So I really like, that whole whole process. So let’s, let’s kind of, talk about a little bit more about the actual skills testing.

Tim: And so one of the things was, is this for every position. So if you hire a laborer, do they have a skill. And I’m doing air quotes here everybody a skills test. And then when you get up to, you know Master Carpenter they have a skills test and like project manager what kind of skills you know do you ask them what does it range the whole gamut of responsibilities.

Tim: And then how does it differ, I guess, from that entry level person to the master carpenter to the project manager, what are some of the things that are in that that skills testing.

Ben: All right. to answer yes. every single position has the skills testing, whether it be a laborer, a junior carpenter, senior carpenter, project leader or project coordinator. right through the office, even, our developers, our sales staff, our administrative, our finance, designers, everyone has the skills to stay in the package. so the skills questions are derived right from their job description and some of the tasks that are involved in it.

Ben: So for a laborer, for instance, one of their main duties is organize organizing. they have to organize their site. They have to be able to stack lumber in an efficient manner. They have to be able to recognize fasteners. They have to be able to decipher different levels of things. So, this was the hardest one for me to come by.

Ben: And, my take can test of all things. I give them a great big pile of paint cans, and I’ve got latex with oil with stains with their things, all different sizes of cans and and even five gallon jugs. I mix in some caulking tubes, I mix in some glues, solvents, and, just basically anything I can find around the shop.

Ben: And I throw it all on this great big work table, and I walk out and I say, okay, organize this in a fashion that you think is is is appropriate and that’s it. I don’t give them any more information. I walk away and they organize it, and I’ve had people organize it from smallest to largest items. I’ve had people just make big piles of stuff and, but my good applicants will actually read the labels and they’ll, they’ll say, okay, well, here’s the stains and here’s the exterior paints and here’s the interior paints, and the really good people will put all the labels out, and they’ll organize it so you can quickly walk in

Ben: and decipher exactly what you need on the table. that’s a huge skill. So think of it this way. If you hire a laborer and it’s day one and you say, go into the tool trailer and organize it, are they going to organize it in a fashion that makes sense to everyone in the chain? so so that’s one of the laboring skills, junior carpenters.

Ben: I have a measuring skill, so I asked them to measure. Certainly. I have four pieces of lumber with different measurements. whether it be 47 and 9/16 or 34.25in, and then right down the measurements for each piece of lumber. And then I have them lay out a ten foot wall and 16 inch centers. And I just want to see where are they if they don’t know how to do it, that’s okay.

Ben: I at least I know where I can start my training. But the basic skill can that read a tape measure and do they understand the basic principle? and then when it comes up to.

Tim: Yes, just on up to the, the really, you know, the really master carpenters like, how do you see if somebody really knows how to build something that, you know, because we do some pretty complex stuff. I know, I know, you guys do. I did when I was in the middle of it. So how do you know that they really can do that stuff?

Ben: Sure. So, if I’m having our lead carpenters, one of the big things is we’re a design build company. We put so much effort, two thirds of the effort of a project goes into creating plans. Can the make carpenters actually read the plans? And, so I’ll have a plan. So I’ll put out a set of plans, say, hey, can you tell me how many 36 inch doors are in the in the plans?

Ben: How many doors are not swing and how many doors are right swing. what’s the center of the window? 103 just so they can they find those answers on the plans? I have a stair question for them to figure out the rise and run up a set of deck stairs, and it’s, it’s actually a trick question, because the answer it’s.

Ben: I use 27in because the rise is either six and three quarters or it’s, eight and a half, I believe. I can’t remember, I should take the just, But it’s, it’s. Do they create the right rise and run? Do they actually create a questionnaire about, say, well, this is actually I would like to have 7.5in, but I can’t get there.

Ben: and then can they put the materials together? the other thing is layered the string. So I’ve had people come up with the paper, answer the mathematics, but when I’ve given them a string and, carpenters square and stair gauges, they’re, they’re like a deer in the headlights. They can’t figure it out. And, and that’s a big telling question.

Ben: Well, you’re not ready for the senior carpenter role. You’re actually had a junior carpenter. Let me teach you how to do stairs. But, so.

Tim: Okay, so what about the that project coordinator or what many of us would call project manager? I saw in your the thing that you sent us, I saw that I thought that was pretty interesting for that role.

Ben: Yeah. So for project coordinators, one of the biggest things I allow them is a communication skill. So I’ve hired a lot of people who understand the technical aspects of construction, but they can’t communicate. Can they send an email? So I ask them to send me an email, dictate, and tell me about a project that they’ve done, include some pictures, show me that they can actually take a proper picture.

Ben: not just, focused in picture of a stair tread, but stand back and show me the whole, the whole thing is there finger in the in the camera lens? is a camera foggy? How do they attach the picture in an email? So I’m trying to figure out their technical skills, skill set as well. and, and planning.

Ben: so I want them to look at a project and say, how would you, how would you plan this project? So I might give them a small bathroom project and say, okay, now what are the steps needed to complete the project? And how much time do you need for all the skill set? in this in our company, it’s not a dictatorship.

Ben: It’s a collaboration. So everything down to timing the field gets introduced to the project before it ever gets old to a client. I’m saying, how much time do you need to build this project? Let’s be realistic, and let’s set the bar at a level that you can achieve. but are they realistic with their time frame, or are they setting a time frame that is just, just out of this world, whether it be two long, 12 week bathroom renovation or three days, either one is probably the wrong answer, right?

Steve: So I, I guess you you have a baseline for, like, the photo test, right? Yeah. You say you want to see close up. You want to see step back. and if the fingers in the way, then so is that addressed right there or is that just kind of a check off in terms of your hiring process?

Ben: Well, they might have passed everything else. And if the photos are, concerning, if that’s a red flag, then I know my first attention to training is going to be, hey, now let’s learn how to take a photo. I can send out an email. Yeah, I need.

Steve: To. Do you think that that because I was I really loved the three things you said attitude, drive and aptitude. so if somebody you know is really good at communicating, but then they, took a photo with their finger in which he said it drove me crazy even thinking about it. but does that, does that say, you know, their attention to detail more than just not knowing how to take the photo?

Steve: Does that tell you other things?

Ben: it could, for example, I have an older, field carpenter who’s been on the tills forever. He’s a great guy. Unfortunately, he’s at that stage in his life where his shoulders don’t work the same as how they did once when he was far younger. His knees are going, so he had to get off the tools and he had to go into a management role.

Ben: he’s a valuable person to me, but he could not take a picture for the like. It. So I actually had to, partner him up. I had to give him some different equipment, and we had to give him lessons on how to take a picture.

Steve: Yeah, that wasn’t that guy.

Ben: Struggled to send me one decent picture where his finger wasn’t covering up the lens, because now I get 15 to 20 pictures of the problem in a day, and they’re fantastic pictures.

Steve: awesome.

Ben: So. So you can teach an old dog new tricks. Yeah. It’s time to be prepared to invest the time and the teaching that skill set.

Tim: And so I’m like, we got to have a podcast on how to take a good picture. That just sounds like a follow up that, we really need to do. But I’m just sitting here wondering. Ben, I’m. I’m, again, I’m trying to listen to this through the ears of our our listeners, and I’m, I’m just hearing people go like, how do they keep an applicant engaged in the process long enough to do all this?

Tim: When we just have to hire them on the spot because they’re going to go take a job with somebody else? If I don’t, how do you maybe, first of all, tell us how long this whole process might take before, from the time you meet them to the time you say, yes, we want to hire them. And then have you had people that just said, hey, I don’t have time to mess with this.

Tim: I’m out of here.

Ben: Yeah, I definitely had those people. And, that’s a red flag in itself. Do you really want that person who who isn’t patient enough to go through the process and look at the as the longer, the bigger picture? so if they leave, it’s probably for your best decision. They’re going to leave at some point anyway. typically the process, I don’t try and drag it out too much today.

Ben: It’s probably about a 3 to 4 week process from start to finish. I’m doing a fast paced one now where, the guy applied a week ago Monday. I called him up Monday. I did my phone interview. Tuesday, we did our first zoom interview. He’s had a skill testing and today I’m doing my hiring interview. So after a skill passing, he actually blew me out of the water.

Ben: And, so he’s today. Now we’re going to do our hiring thing. But in that process, I was selling him on culture, on the culture of the company. And, we even we haven’t even talked wage at this point. I have an idea where he wants to be, get that out of the out of the. You want to understand?

Ben: Are they actually being realistic with the wages that you’re going to offer in the first place, or else there’s no point, entertaining them any further. But I sold and I’ve kept them on the hook because of the culture. So he’s actually talked to the person in the role that he’s taking over, and that person has sold them on how great of a place it is.

Ben: so that’s kind of how I keep them engaged. I don’t drag them out and honor your commitment. So if you say you’re going to call them back at a certain time, make sure you call them back. Even if you haven’t got a good answer. Just make sure you connect with them.

Tim: Okay. So you’ve referred a couple of times here and we’re going to start wrapping this up. But I do want to talk about this question for sure. You you’ve mentioned a couple of times core values or culture, that sort of thing. And you know, again, we did a program on this a little while ago, even spent a whole podcast on culture.

Tim: But it just seems like such a, vague thing to me. It’s such an it’s a it’s an intangible. For those of us who are tangible people, we pick up a song, we cut a board. And so culture is, is difficult for us to get our heads wrapped around. What kinds of questions or how do you find out from an applicant if they’ve got your core values, if they’ve got your kind of culture, how do you how do you dig in to somebody head and get that kind of information?

Ben: Well, the easiest answer I have a set of core values cards. it’s got 32 different, values. And, and I use the core values. I believe I got them through Remodelers advantage many years ago. Yeah, they’re they’re brought up in every single, meeting and had a 32 values. None of them are bad. They’re all great values.

Ben: It’s just do five of your core values match any of my core values?

Tim: So do you actually give them this deck of cards and tell them to pick out the five that are most important?

Ben: And they kind of, wonder, what the hell have I got myself into? but but it’s a fun exercise. and the speed at which they go through the values, I’ve had people just shuffle through the deck and pull the top five values out and say, well, there’s my values. Well, you know, you didn’t even look at all 32 cards, so I kind of doubt it is.

Ben: do I really want you on a place doing crown molding? So if you’re if you’re that sort of a fast paced person and then some people go through the deck and they read every single person detail. And if you go into this person, I mean, they’re probably a C. There’s they’re highly detailed and they’re really good as a carpenter.

Ben: They just might never finish a task. So but, so there’s, there’s multiple things you look at when you’re finding out the values, but it’s also questions, questions geared around how do they operate in the team environment and how would have they ever been faced with this sort of of a situation? And how do they handle, all of our questions are like that.

Ben: I think I’ve got 25 different questions I ask that are all geared around certain values.

Tim: Wow. So, again, I knew this was going to be a great, conversation to have, but then you’ve really, I don’t know, blown my mind, if you will. This is such an incredible process. And I think, one of the big things has been just the development. You know, it’s taken a little bit of time and, and, you know, teamwork to put it all together.

Tim: but, any, any last little golden nuggets that you would give anybody listening. And by the way, I do want to mention to all of our listeners that bands in Canada and you can’t go steal his people because you can’t cross the border. So don’t even get that idea in your head. Right. So, man, if you would give us a little bit of, like a gold nugget, something that we can just take with us.

Tim: And as we wrap this up.

Ben: Sure. Tim, building a great team, is you’ve got to plant the seeds early, and you have to nurture them over time. we’ve been working on this. I think I’ve been involved with you and a little bit over six years now. maybe seven years. And in those seven years we’ve been working towards that goal, I would say right now I’ve got 21 people in the field, and all 21 people enjoy working with one another.

Ben: I have zero talk toxins in the field at this point, so apparently whatever we’re doing seems to be working. It’s a very slow hiring process, and the entire team agreed that they’re willing to take the time to get the right applicants. So it’s not just me, it’s everyone. It’s everyone’s included. It’s, And it seems to be working well.

Ben: So.

Tim: Yeah. Well, congratulations. And, Good. Good job. I mean, I, I don’t know how else to say it, just a great, great deal of work that you’ve put into that as well as everyone else on the team there. I know it hasn’t just been, you know, you doing this, but, and thank you so much for being here.

Tim: This is great. I just want to emphasize to the listeners that you probably have some good stuff in place as well, but just take little tidbits here. Yeah, that band has shared it. Maybe add some things to what you’re already doing that might make this really, effective for you as well. So thank you very much, Ben. Appreciate you’re taking some time today to be with us.

Ben: Thank you for having me to.

Steve: Tim. There’s we do a lot of podcasts. I think we’re on. I don’t know, 130, but, you know, there’s certain ones that just have this really important value to them. And this is one of them. Ben, you know, you people should probably listen to this a few times and just pull what they can out of it for themselves.

Steve: Obviously, if you’re a four person team, it’s a little different. But, you know, culture in your company is everything. And, this is a great way to go about it and finding the right people, you know, I haven’t heard it kind of laid out like this, but it’s it’s incredibly detailed, well thought out. And, I applaud Ben and the entire Kawartha Lakes team for doing this.

Tim: Yeah, there’s just a couple of things that really stood out to me. You know, the whole focus on the culture and trying to get people in that are going to be great for the team. And how do you find out, like who is going to be great for the team? You ask the team. You don’t just hire in a vacuum.

Tim: And I know this is getting more and more popular, but it’s a real thing that’s important. And you listen to them when they say, no, this guy or gal won’t work out. You listen to who? Yeah, who you know, to your to your core team and and you know, follow follow that. I think the other big thing he mentioned, he said this has been evolving.

Tim: And I think, you know, I think he got intra remodelers advantage what he said about seven years ago. And he’s been developing as well as everything that he brings to the picture. But don’t be discouraged. Very much like a job, when you find difficulties, you make changes to the system. The same thing’s true with the hiring process. Don’t keep making the same mistakes.

Tim: Drop back, figure out what’s not working, and then revise it along. You know, along the lines that Ben’s talking about so that it does get better and better. And then the last thing I wanted to talk about, I mentioned, you know, what questions do you have, you know, for them? How do you what is this task that you put them through?

Tim: And the first thing he said was, the test revolves around the job description. And I one of the things that I have found sorely, discouraging with interview process in many companies is they ask a whole lot of questions that have nothing to do with what the person’s actually going to be doing, or not specific related to that.

Tim: And then certainly the skills testing has to be there as well. So I just I mean, I don’t know, I don’t think there’s one golden nugget. I think there’s probably 8 or 10 in here.

Steve: Yeah. But even the detail I mean, tell me you didn’t look at that skills training and you were put thinking in your head, I think I could do that. I think I could do that. And I take me a second on that. Yeah. And you and I have talked about the stair stringers and. Yeah, one stat ones, one that,

Steve: Yeah. Separates the pack. It’s, it’s really, really great work. So yeah, we want to thank Ben Reynolds for joining us today. We always want to thank you for listening to another episode of the Tim Faller Show.

Tim: And remember, at the Tim Faller Show, we’re working hard to eliminate it is what it is from your vocabulary.

Steve: I this has been another episode of The Tim Faller Show. Want to hire Tim and fast track your growth? Visit remodelers advantage.com/consulting to learn more. And if you’d like more information about roundtables, our world class peer advisory program, please send me an email at Steve at remodelers advantage.com. And of course, don’t forget to subscribe to the show and comment on iTunes.

Steve: Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.