Greg: Welcome to the Tim Faller Show, where production is paramount and we discuss the tools, time and people associated with getting jobs done and making a profit.

Greg: On today’s episode of The Tim Faller Show, we will be talking about a new twist on the four day work week with the help of special guests Erich Van Cleave, co-owner of Van Cleave Construction, Remodeling and Design in St Joseph, Missouri, alongside Tim Fallon. On your co-host, Greg Woleck, here is the Tim Faller Show.

Tim: Hey, everybody out there in Podcast Land. Tim Faller here again and I’m really excited about another episode of the show. Love to hear from folks. If you like what you hear and send me an email and tell me if you don’t like what you hear and send the email to somebody else because I don’t really like bad news.

Tim: But if you want to be a guest. Tim at Remodelersadvantage.com and let’s chat. All right. Years ago I heard when I was a production manager, I heard about some companies that were dealing with this thing that we call the four day workweek, and I was very intrigued by it. My thoughts were the field staff would work for days, the office staff would work five days, and we’d have a whole day in the office where nothing was going on out in the field and we could focus on the paperwork and the other things that we had to do.

Tim: So I proposed this to my bosses at Hopkins Importer, so a lot of different reasons. I really didn’t want to go with it. And so we never move forward with it. However, Episode 78 Back in November of 2019, Tim Welsh, who is the owner of a company in Lexington, Virginia, came on the Tim Faller show and talked about the four day workweek because they were actively using it in their company and it really works well for them.

Tim: And one of the things that he said in that episode was that it was a real tool for hiring good talent to come to the company because you got that Friday off and everybody loved that idea. And retention was not a problem because almost nobody else had this thing going on with their company. So people have discussed the pros and cons of this for years.

Tim: Mostly people side with the con side. In other words, they decide not to do it. There’s not a lot of companies that do it that I’m familiar with, but I think there’s a shift in our culture. And what I’m hearing from the people who study these kinds of things is that the latest generation ones that are coming up into the trades, yes, they are out there.

Tim: They do not live to work, but they work to live and in other words, family time, fun activities, hobbies and leisure tend to be more important to them than racking up a bunch of dollars. Now almost everybody wants a bunch of dollars. I can see that. But the idea of having some time off seems to be more important.

Tim: So what this means is that people tend to look at that time off as more valuable than maybe a raise or some of the things that might come along. So as I mentioned in the title, Greg actually mentioned that our guest today has a new twist on this that I really like, and I wanted to make sure I got him on the show.

Tim: So Greg, let’s get going.

Greg: Thanks, Tim. Eric Van Cleave founded Van Cleave Construction, Remodeling and Design in St Joseph, Missouri in 2006, and he wore all the hats, including the tool bags. Their annual revenue was $250,000 in the first year. Today, they have an amazing team of 15 offering design, build and construction services with revenues just north of $3 million. The average tenure for a Van Cleave team member is just over seven years.

Greg: Welcome to the show, Eric.

Erich: Thanks for having me.

Tim: All right. So here we go. So give us a little bit more about your company and maybe a little bit about Saint Joe as well, because, you know, we visited with you and it is a much smaller sort of community than many of the cities that our listeners there. And so I’d be interested to hear a little bit about the community as well as the company.

Erich: Sure. So I’ll talk a little bit about Saint Joe first. We’re about an hour north of Kansas City, so that’s the next biggest town and we’re about 75,000 people. It’s a smaller town. We don’t have a lot of industry to speak of. It’s it’s it’s we have a few big employers that kind of help support the community. And we don’t have a lot to offer when it comes to vendors and things like that.

Erich: That’s all in Kansas City. So, you know, private top or countertop fabricators, things like that all come from the big city. So, you know, we’ve been here since 2006 and when we first started out, we we knew that we couldn’t do just one thing. And, you know, when you’re in a bigger city, you can have more customers for just one niche market.

Erich: With us, we kind of had to do everything. We didn’t pigeonhole ourselves. So in those slow times we were staying busy. So that’s what we do today is we started out doing a lot of exterior kitchens or I’m sorry, sliding windows, doors, right decks, that kind of thing. And then we grew into where we’re doing some interior work and now today we’re probably 70% interior remodel, 30% exterior.

Tim: So give us a little idea of the employee base, particularly from the production side who do you have out there in the field for production?

Erich: Yeah. So I myself do sales and estimating, which I’m actually taking over leads used to be training to be an educator currently. But then Erin is our production manager and he oversees six lead carpenters in the field. And then we have a carpenter, one carpenter too as well. The carpenter ones and twos primarily do our framing and a lot of our deck building, and then they’re also assessed on the interior jobs.

Tim: Okay, good. So we’re talking about a fairly good sized crew in-house. So in other words, we’re not subbing everything out, particularly the carpentry. So we’ve introduced this as a new twist on the four day workweek. And so I’d like you to explain to the listeners, what are you doing that’s different than sort of the standard four day workweek that we hear about?

Erich: Yeah. So I was one of those people that was kind of on the fence, whether the pros and the cons to it and those things. And so we decided that worked well for us. Is doing the four day workweek for only part of a year. And so from Memorial Day to Labor Day is when we do our four day workweek.

Erich: So all summer we have three day weekends and it’s nice in the fact that it kind of correlates with school. So a lot of the guys that have kids in school when you’re not in that work, you know, from Labor Day tomorrow or with school in session, it’s a lot harder because they have to take kids to school or kids up and things like that.

Erich: In the summer. It’s a little bit easier to manage.

Tim: Yeah, that so this is what I think is really cool because the summers are, you know, time for leisure is time for outdoor activity, time for everybody knows I love to fish and lobster traps. And so for me, summer is like let’s let’s really enjoy that because it gets kind of cold nasty during the wintertime. So really cool.

Tim: So is this for everybody? I mentioned in the intro that one of my thoughts that Ben feels staff’s on the four day work week, but office staff is on the, you know, the five day workweek. So for your company does everybody participate in this four day workweek, in other words, on Fridays that you’re just closed?

Erich: Yeah, So we’re kind of flexible on it. So the first year we did it, it was a learning curve and we figured some things out. The second year, we had a new employee who wasn’t able to do it. He just said, Hey, I can’t. I have childcare issues and things like that. So he was working on Friday, so we were just planning on the week out where he had work on Friday that he could do for the office staff.

Erich: It just kind of depends on what our workload is. Myself So my most productive time is on Friday mornings from seven to noon where I have zero distractions and it’s a four hour office manager. She can get a lot of her things done in that short amount of time without those, you know, distractions are happening throughout the day.

Erich: So but ideally, yes, everybody can participate in it.

Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So, I mean, you got this great idea. Was it hard initially to make that shift? This has been always, again, one of my fears is when I’ve been working in the field. I know when the end of the day has come in like an hour before quittin time and I don’t know about everybody else. And I almost hate to admit this, but I start slowing down, right?

Tim: I start winding down. We’ll put it that way. And it seems like if you went ahead night on Friday, that was one thing. Then next Monday, boom, it’s going to be different. That would be really hard for me. Any any challenges like that? And maybe every year, is it sort of a couple of weeks of shifting and then it then it kind of smooths out?

Erich: I think now that we’ve been doing I think this is our third or fourth year doing it. I think this will be our fourth coming up with our fourth year. That first week is always hard, right? You’re getting to work at our earlier, you’re staying an hour later and everybody’s kind of dragging a little bit. Yeah, but I think after that first three day weekend, it makes it all worth it.

Tim: Yeah. You start going like that, that’s that’d be worth it.

Erich: Yeah. You know, the other concerns I had when we did it, though, was my biggest concern was customer pushback. Like, you know, they see us there and then all of a sudden nobody’s there on Friday and they’re wondering, well, nothing’s getting anywhere. You know, in my mind. And of course, you know, that’s it. But once we did that, we explain to people and gave them some expectations.

Erich: I’ve had zero customer feedback that’s been negative about that. Most customers are like, That’s great. We think that’s an awesome idea and they’re all for it.

Greg: So, Eric, you know, we’re all about production here. Have you seen any like benefits on the production side of things by using the four day workweek?

Erich: Yeah. So I mean, I think for me it’s more intuitive. I don’t have any metrics to back it up, but I look at it that, you know, it’s one less day of setting up and taking down and driving to the job site. And, you know, it’s better planning. And the other thing that helps as well is if a guy misses a day because he calls in, that’s 25% of his week where, you know, they think a little bit, you know, it’s a little harder process for them to call in sick or schedule an appointment.

Erich: So now they know their Friday off. They can schedule that dentist appointment or that oil change or whatever they need to do on that Friday morning. And they still have a full workweek.

Greg: That was sort of the second part of my question. Have you have you seen less, you know, PTO time or, you know, less sick, better attendance, anything like that?

Erich: Yeah, we have We’ve seen that, you know, people are planning around knowing that they’re going to a Friday off and which I think relates to better production the field. The other thing that, you know, when I was in the field it always seemed like when I got to the job site and you got your tools out and you got set up and kind of get your bearings about what your to do for the day, before you know it, it’s lunchtime, right?

Erich: And so then you break for lunch and then you get back from lunch. It takes a little bit longer to get set up and get back in the rhythm. And then, you know, just a short amount of time where you have that extra hour on each end, you know, before and after lunch, it seems like you can get a better rhythm and get a little bit more done with that time.

Tim: Yeah. So what are some of the things that if a listener out there, you know, wanted to put this into place in their company or what might they run up against and maybe, maybe a little bit of how you set this up with your team. In other words, I because I can’t imagine you just had a team meeting.

Tim: Is it all right? Next week we’re starting a four day workweek. Everybody, you know, suck up and let’s make it work. You know what? What would you what would be the process of getting this started, do you think, if someone wanted to do it?

Erich: So I think I first presented it several months ahead and in a company meeting, and I said, here’s what I’m thinking. I’d love to hear your feedback and who’s it going to work for and who has challenges with it and who just absolutely can’t do it. And we said open conversation about it. And, you know, I think everybody’s willing to give it a try.

Erich: And the one guy that I said was a new new hire that said he just couldn’t do it because of childcare. I think that only lasts about half the summer. And he was able to find a solution to that pretty quick, seeing how everybody else was off. And yeah, you know, and I think that as long as everybody’s on board with it and, you know, if you can make it work, it can be a huge selling point for, like you said, retention and attracting new help that I mean, there’s nobody in this area that I know that’s offering it.

Erich: So if I’m putting a posting on there, release carpenter And you have three day weekends and all summer long and that catches some attention.

Tim: Yeah. And sometimes you might even be four days off. 4th of July falls in the right place that that sort of thing. It just sounds like a great deal to me. So.

Erich: Well, here’s the other thing, too. The real benefit to the company, it costs zero extra dollars to do it.

Tim: Right?

Erich: So to employ somebody and tell them you’re going to get your 40 hours in four days instead of five. I mean, that’s this 40 hours or 40 hours.

Tim: So, yeah, Yeah, for sure.

Greg: So, Eric, having having spent some time with your team, has this four day workweek helped you maybe expand your market knowing that you’re only going to have to drive four days a week as opposed to five days a week to get to certain jobs?

Erich: Not necessarily. Even though we are a small market. I mean, there’s there’s quite a bit of work within a small radius of our company. So we’re not having to go out too far. My my philosophy is kind of been we’ll go where the work is, right, even though my guys may not agree with me. And of course, they want to drive 5 minutes to their home to get to work.

Erich: We have to go where the jobs are. So but yes, when we do have those jobs that are a little bit further out, it does make it easier because if you’ve got a 30 or 40 minute drive to get to the jobs like that, it gives you work more time on the job for that day.

Tim: That’s interesting because the one time that we did this at Hopkins and Border, the lead carpenter lived an hour south of the office and the job was about a half an hour north. And so we set it up for a four day workweek for him. So he’d only be making that trip, you know, four days a week. And he really loved it.

Tim: I don’t even think the clients knew that he wasn’t there on Friday. I think he just they just kind of the job got done. It was beautiful. And it worked really, really well for those long distance type jobs. I think it’s a great a great experience. And that’s where I would say maybe there’s some flexibility in there, even in the wintertime for a job that is a long way from the office.

Tim: Maybe we can, you know, do that on a four day workweek to keep the mileage down.

Erich: But then we actually just did that this past winter. I’m sure the winter before. Where were the guys came to me and said, hey, listen, this job’s 40 minutes away. What if I did four tens this job to cut down on that travel time? And that was a great idea because, you know, he doesn’t want to drive, you know, five days a week and he was able to get the work done.

Erich: And yeah, it was a good benefit for sure.

Tim: Yeah. So I mentioned this company in Lexington, Virginia, and I happen to know a little bit about Virginia because I lived in that area for a while. I know that it’s a warmer type climate than Saint Joe. Even in the wintertime, it’s a warmer climate. Do you think that plays into what they’re doing four days all year and maybe in the colder climates where summer becomes maybe a little more critical, this shift is a little more important?

Tim: I don’t know. I guess I’m just kind of fish and to see if maybe there’s some psychology there, too.

Erich: Yeah. For me, I don’t want to go to work when it’s dark and come home when it’s dark. Yeah, but I think that’s that’s the biggest part, you know, I mean, in the wintertime here in Missouri, it can get dark at 5:00 or close to it. And so, yeah, I think that it’s it would be very hard on somebody to work those hours in the wintertime here, for sure.

Tim: Yeah, I would think that would be a critical thing.

Greg: Right, Eric, Everyone wants to know how did the subs work? How did how did how did this process work with your trade partners?

Erich: Yeah. So I was hoping we’re going to get to that again. Small market, not we don’t work with a ton of different trade partners and all of a sudden we build into this long. Now all of our trades it we’re not, we don’t work right now. If there’s something that needs to happen countertop install, let’s get it on a Friday.

Erich: Usually in the morning that lead that’s on the job, they know that they’re going to have to go there to to make sure things go well. So they’re you know, it’s it’s not a a line in the sand. I mean, we still have to take care of our customers, but our trade partners, they they get it right. They know.

Erich: yeah. You got are you guys on your summer schedule now or he’s back to work on Fridays. And so we just stay in communication with them and work around it and plan around it.

Tim: So yeah, Now go back to the clients. Tell us a little. I think you said it, but I want to make sure everybody really hears it out there in podcast Land. How did you get beyond the idea that, Hey, we’re going to be gone one day a week from your job? How did how did you set those expectations with the clients?

Erich: I think we we just let them know in a pre pre-construction meeting or even when I gave the bid, depending on if I know what’s going to happen at that time. I’ll mention say, hey, just to let you know, during the summer we work for tens and we’ll still be getting the same amount of work done. It’s just that we like to give our guys the Fridays off in the summer and you know, we try to take care of our people.

Erich: And and like I said, I’ve not had any pushback from customers at all about why are you guys here? Why is anything getting done? So it was my own head trying to think that that was going to be an issue with clients, but it just wasn’t.

Tim: So is there ever a is there ever a challenge like if you start a job March 31st and it runs through July, that shift right in the middle of the job, does that ever become like a challenge in terms of why is it somebody here or is it just simply setting the expectations?

Erich: Yeah, just setting expectations. Yeah. We just keep rolling through and and yeah, I don’t I don’t know that that’s ever been been brought up.

Tim: Okay.

Erich: The client side.

Tim: Yeah. Yeah. I just, you know there, there are some of those. I was, I had lunch today with a fella and we were talking about how we tend to see the world, you know, as the half empty person, Like, something’s going to go wrong. This is, you know, and I think perhaps this is one of those things that people like me worry about that really isn’t a problem.

Tim: You know, It really is. Just worry about it. Just need to communicate, set good expectations and then roll with it.

Erich: So well, I think sometimes in in this industry especially, I’m sure others as own, we always try to come up with solutions for problems that don’t exist.

Tim: Right.

Erich: And sometimes the problem never even comes up. And we’re ourselves is thinking about the worst case scenario.

Tim: Yeah. All right. We’re going to wind up here. Eric, any final encouragements or tips to the podcast world about this four day workweek during the summer or anything you’d encourage them to to think about or maybe even do.

Erich: You know, I think it’s a it’s a really good tool for attracting talent and retaining talent. You know, like you had said, if you’re if you have a guy working for you that’s used to working four days in the summer and, you know, he wants to replace that job but not to work that fifth day, you might think a lot harder about that extra perk that he’s getting.

Erich: Yeah. You know, if for advertising to attract that talent, if they’re not getting that now and they think that you know, they want to have their weekends off in the summer too and they know our guys do and they might come over and talk to us.

Tim: Yeah, that’s that’s absolutely fantastic. Well, thanks very much, Eric. I think I hope this is a conversation that’ll keep going throughout, you know, the air waves, people talking about this kind of thing. But you’ve helped us understand a new twist on the four day workweek.

Erich: Yeah, well, thanks for letting me share it and having me on the show and it was great to be here with you guys.

Greg: Eric, thank you for joining us today on the Tim Faller Show. We wish you and your team continued success. We’ll look forward to having you back on the show in the future. So what we learned today, Tim.

Tim: Wow, there’s all kinds of things that that kind of came up. I really I got back to that idea of the client and the subs because that’s where most companies don’t think this will work. And I think Eric’s point about sometimes we create a problem that isn’t there and setting the proper expectations and yeah, with the subs and I like this point that says, hey, if I have to be there for an hour on Friday, I should know a couple of weeks ahead anyway.

Tim: And yeah, I’m going to make sure I’m there to make sure that countertop gets installed or what inspection happens perhaps, or whatever. And so I think there’s there’s that side of it working with the subs and setting good expectations. And then I think the benefits just I think they’re showing themselves to be part of our solution for retention.

Tim: I guess that’s the only way I can say it is the benefit of this. And, and I like what they’re doing. I mean, the whole year, again, the idea of going to work in the dark and, you know, coming home in the dark and I’m in a similar, you know, environment except I think in the middle of winter here where I where I live, sun goes down about 430.

Tim: And it’s just it’s like no fun driving home from a job site at 530 when it’s been dark for an hour and that sort of thing. But the summer time thing, I am totally intrigued with, and maybe because I love Summer so much. What about you?

Greg: I think I agree with you. But you know, when I came into the industry, my boss would make us work longer in the summer because we had more daylight. So we didn’t we didn’t get the shortened the shortened days. And that’s, you know, the shortened week, which is fine. I like that Eric does it on the same days I did work with another company I consulted with and it was a little, little, little loose when you could take that that day off.

Greg: And it didn’t always align with with things. But I also know that, you know, these guys are good at showing up for inspection, showing up for installations, things like that that have to happen.

Tim: Yeah, I just I don’t know how to how to run it by. And I’m sure, you know, if someone wants to talk a little more with Eric about how he made this happen and what he does, I’m sure we can connect you up with him and and and you can have that conversation with him about it. But it’s just a you know, I love doing this podcast because I get to share these new new idea to me, obviously not to them.

Tim: They’ve been doing it for a few years. So but I just think a great opportunity in our business.

Greg: Once again. Tim, we like to thank Eric Van Cleave of the Van Cleave Construction, Remodeling and Design for joining us today. And thank you, the listener, for checking out another episode of The Tim Faller Show.

Tim: And Greg, this is a perfect example of trying to help everybody eliminate It is what it is from their vocabulary.

Greg: This has been another episode of the Tim Faller show. Would you like to hire Tim or myself to help fast track your growth? Please send me an email. Greg at remodelersadvantage dot com. For more information about our production manager and design manager roundtables to get more information about consulting for your team or if you’ve ideas for the podcast, please subscribe to the show comment on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Greg: Thank you so much for listening.