Mark: Today on PowerTips Unscripted, we talk to Doug Selby, chief visionary sustainability director for Medlock Design Build in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Many of your customers will pay more for items that improve the health, comfort and efficiency of their home. Did you know that as one of the few things that pay for themselves over time, green upgrades can also boost your average project revenue and make you stand out among other builders?

Mark: Well, Doug is here to explain how you can improve your bottom line with green upgrades. And we’ll hear from him in just a minute.

Victoria: Hi, I’m Victoria Downing and welcome to PowerTips Unscripted, where we talk about tips, tactics and techniques to help you build a strong, profitable ball remodeling company. And I’m here today with my co-host, Mark Harari.

Mark: Heidi Ho, neighbor.

Victoria: Hey, how are you?

Mark: I’m doing well. How are you?

Victoria: Good. And I’m excited about today’s episode.

Mark: I am to green, green, green.

Victoria: You know, I mean, I’m such a massive recycler and all that stuff. I’m totally into, you know, being green, but also I think that it’s not just about helping the planet. I mean, this is a straight up business proposition. You know, it can just make a big difference in the revenue you generate, the profits you generate and can make you unique.

Mark: Well, we’ve said it. You know, many people have said it may cost a little bit more upfront for a for a renovation or project, but in the long run, it pays for itself sometimes over.

Victoria: That’s right. So let’s find out. How shall we?

Mark: We shall.

Victoria: Doug Selby is a co-founder of Meadowlark Design Build in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and he recently graduated from the CEO role to focus on long term strategy and act as the company’s sustainability director. Doug is a building science expert. He’s helped Meadowlark build a reputation in this community for quality of construction and leadership in ecological housing issues. Welcome, Doug.

Doug: Hello.

Victoria: How are you? I’m great. How are you? My fellow Michigander.

Doug: Yes, that’s right. I’m doing well. It’s cold here. We’re ready for Christmas.

Victoria: How cold is it?

Doug: well, I think I remember coming back from the office last night. It was about 17, and I think it’s about similar today. So, yeah, it’s. It’s a little bracing.

Victoria: Wow. Well, we really appreciate you being with us today. You know, I’ve seen you do some presentations on this topic with some of your fellow roundtable members. And it was fascinating. You know, you really you just know your stuff so well. So I appreciate your being willing to share some of that with our listening audience.

Doug: Yeah, absolutely. I can unequivocally say that that we wouldn’t be where we are today without a lot of things, including remodelers advantage. Thank you. Shameless plug for you guys. But I think it is true. And and also you know, green building during the downturn was one of the bright spots in the building industry. And, you know, we didn’t go into it and start doing it because of that.

Doug: But but we certainly enjoyed the benefits of that, being able to grow our company while the industry was undergoing, you know, massive change and a lot of downsizing.

Victoria: Well, so, okay, you didn’t start because of that, but how did you become interested in green building?

Doug: Well, I mean, I am a chemist and a physicist by training.

Victoria: Fascinating right there.

Doug: I yeah, I mean, you know, kind of unexpectedly, I’ve run into a few companies that started building companies, so maybe there is something there. I don’t know. But but certainly, you know, I’ve grown up around science. My father had a laboratory growing up there. Of course, we were all forced to work and for below market. But so, you know, sort of science is in my blood, so to speak.

Doug: And and so but I also love carpentry and working with my hands. And it was the one lightbulb moment I’ve had in my entire life was when I realized that that some people do carpentry by day and that I could actually make that my my main job. And as soon as I did that, it just really came into focus for me and.

Doug: But, you know, Kirk Brandon, my business partner, and I started the business and we we first started talking about, you know, when we were first forming the business about all these great things people were doing and, you know, structural insulated panels and insulated concrete forms and all these cool construction methods. And and, you know, I just thought people didn’t do it in the Midwest because it was too expensive or something.

Doug: And, you know, it was working out in Seattle at the time for people who had no money worries at all. And he said, no, they’re not really doing it out there either. So, you know, part of starting our company was to say, you know, we know that there’s better ways to build. We know that there’s there’s, you know, better methods out there.

Doug: So let’s at, you know, let’s explore those in our company.

Victoria: So when you started Meadowlark, was that was that a goal? Right from the beginning then?

Doug: I think it was. You know, Kirk and I spent a lot of time doing primitive awareness skills and sort of learning to live off the grid, so to speak, going out in the woods with a knife and a blanket and seeing, you know, how how well you could do now and no matches, no lighters, no nothing and only and have to make your own shelters and things like that.

Doug: And, you know, so obviously, you know, we have we have a love of the environment. Anyway. We would go you know, just as for for fun, we go camping to kind of really beautiful locations and things like that. And so both of us shared that sort of that love of the outdoors and and the environment and, you know, nature in general.

Doug: So I think that was a natural choice for us to start a little bit focusing on that when we were forming the company.

Victoria: So, wow. How do you think this focus has affected your business compared to other remodelers, for example?

Doug: Well, I can see that, you know, I did a podcast, not a podcast, but a webinar with the NAHB a couple of years ago. And one of the interesting points was that the moderator there showed a few slides of what happened to builders during the downturn, sort of generally, statistically and then what happened to green builders. And it was almost a mirror image in terms of and so, you know, his point was that if you know those companies that did well and were able to grow during the downturn, most of them were focusing on green and environmental issues.

Doug: And and it was for me, it was kind of like, Jesus, that’s exactly what happened to us. You know, our companies were going out of business left and right all around us. And somehow, you know, by focusing on this and talking about it lot, you know, we were one of the good news stories in the industry. And I could literally get a front page or, you know, of the home section, you know, once every two months in our local newspapers.

Doug: And just, you know, there was an awful lot of media that was really looking to write something about the building industry that was good. So it really, you know, took us from being a four person company to a 20 person company within a few years. And, you know, then we just sort of grew from there.

Victoria: So what do you suggest to homeowners? What are some of the best ways to help them reduce their energy costs and, you know, feel more comfortable in their home?

Doug: Well, I kind of follow a little moniker that I use called using sorry, lose less, use less, and then produce and really, though lose less is first. And if you think about it, losing less energy means basically insulating and ever tightening your house. It’s by far the most important thing that you can do to make a home more energy efficient, more comfortable.

Doug: And even in Michigan, where we have 17 degree days, I would say that in Ann Arbor, where the housing stock is a little older, there’s probably about 40% of the homes here in Ann Arbor that are just, you know, very minimal, if not completely uninsulated. wow. So it really is something that, you know, that people don’t know a lot about.

Doug: And and when you when you do a great job insulating in the air, sealing somebody’s house, it makes an immediate difference. They’ll see it in their energy bills immediately. And they’ll certainly notice that in comfort. And so, you know, looking for ways that we can when we’re remodeling that we can improve the thermal envelope of the home is a huge factor.

Doug: And even when we’re dealing with more modern homes, you know, they’re often pretty leaky and they they could stand a lot of air sealing. And, you know, so just kind of looking at getting some some some numbers on the home, getting some testing, going on. The home is something that many colleagues are happy to have that information and will pay for somebody to come in and and sort of give an assessment of the how their home is doing from an energy and a, you know, sort of an energy and air quality perspective and things like that.

Doug: And you can really use that information to target your results much better. Many times we find out that, you know, addicts are woefully unemployed or that, you know, that the bond where the foundation meets the framing is just with one air through it. And, you know, air sealing is a huge thing, too. It’s it’s worth about 40% of the energy of an average home versus just from air currents moving through the home due to a leaky, leaky building envelope.

Doug: So I would say that’s number one.

Mark: So just to clarify, when homeowners are calling you for a project, are they asking for this or are they calling you for something like an addition or a kitchen and you’re offering to to look at their whole homes energy situation?

Doug: You know, I would say that most homeowners are blissfully unaware of these issues. And and so they are calling us for other work. And when we are in the home, it’s a good time to say, hey, have you looked at this? Have you have you considered, you know, the the the you know, these these tactics, these methods that we can do in your home and if presented.

Doug: Right. And as I say, that’s kind of the key is presenting these to the client in the right manner is really is a really big help and in selling them and making them kind of desire these things really because honestly, it’s it’s kind of like one of those things like dental work, you know, it’s it’s, it’s, you know, a little bit painful and, you know, you don’t really get much out of it except for maybe your I think dental work might work might be worth worse because, you know, at least there there is pain.

Doug: So the pain for people is is is their monthly energy bill. But it’s really easy to forget that. And they don’t necessarily know what they can do to improve their home in that regard. And that’s where we come in, because we’re the professionals, right? We can look at their home and we can assess how it’s doing, and we can also ask them questions about how comfortable they are on the home and do they worry about the air quality in the home.

Doug: And and, you know, is there anything any allergies or has or that anybody has? And, you know, so kind of tuning the interview process to to focus in on some of the things that they they where they know their health isn’t what it could be, but they don’t know exactly what to do about it.

Victoria: So you mentioned testing, Right. So do you automate medically do its I assume blower door testing is one of the main tests you do.

Doug: We used to offer that more or less of the standard. But these days the designers will will suggest that if somebody is specifically looking for for energy upgrades and typically that’s best because you know, the people that want that data tend to be more engineering types. They they are types to kind of collect data and and some people really want to know also facilitating that relationship warmer or getting that data together can really help direct some of their decisions.

Victoria: Okay, great. So you talked about loose less with the insulation in the house envelope. Now how about the next one use less.

Doug: Well, right. And this one really takes there. You know, our literally hundreds of products in a home that have you know, so some use of energy and you know over the years, for instance, one of them that I’ve really watched sort of blossom is the LED lighting. You know, I mean, it’s gone from being something where we used to sell actually all the lighting back when the average price of a recent can was, you know, 100 bucks for a good one.

Doug: And, you know, now they’re a fraction of that. And and to the point where it does not make sense not to install only the lighting in a home and but you’d be surprised how many homes we go into from you know that I go into that were recently remodeled by another builder or in a home tour situation and things like that.

Doug: And I still see a lot of incandescent light bulbs there. So I would say it’s not standard in the industry, but that’s a that’s a no brainer. That’s an easy one. You know, as your hot water heating, that’s hot water heating is a huge component of energy of 15%, let’s say, in most home. Wow. So, you know, is your hot water heating heater efficient?

Doug: Is it is it is it drafting by mechanically drafting or the power because of it mechanically drafting? And, you know, you may end up being in a situation where that’s causing a health issue in the home, too, because anytime the house goes negative and pressure, you know, you turn on bathroom pans and a kitchen hood and things like that and you may be sucking that carbon monoxide back into your home.

Doug: wow. So those are things many times people will replace a furnace with a with a, you know, like a 98% efficient furnace. Let’s say something that’s sidewall vented and they’ll leave their old mechanically drafted hot water heater, which goes up a chimney. Well, you know, people don’t know that if masonry chimney does not get hot enough from a hot water heater to be able to draw.

Doug: So, you know, you really needed that furnace to make the hot water heater actually work efficiently. And so, you know, a lot of times this can be creating an unhealthy air quality situation in the home, too. So that those two are very much related. Speaking of healthy air quality, you know, that’s a huge issue, too, and something that really is the hot button for a lot of people.

Doug: We install energy recovery, ventilators, quite a bit in our homes. And, you know, that’s a mechanical device that all in is probably, you know, 5 to $8000 from the customer. I have one in my home, though, and I’ve noticed a huge difference in the air quality in my home. And, you know, when you build a take home, you just have to think about all of the products that we bring in and all of these things that we find more and more are causing, you know, human health issues.

Doug: well, you know, flushing the air in your home, but doing it while keeping the energy that you’ve already paid for lunch over the long term is a good strategy for health that ends up not costing you a bunch of extra energy bills. And it targets where you’re where you’re getting that fresh air, too.

Victoria: that’s really interesting. Okay. So we talked about lose less. We talked a bit about use less. What about the last one? Was it produce?

Doug: The last one has been produced. Right. So that’s, you know, solar panels and things like that are sexy. People want them. That’s I’ve had people call me up and the first words out of their mouth were like, I want solar panels. Well, that’s great. Have you insulated your home yet? That’s my knowledge. Great. Have you changed out your lighting to be like, No.

Doug: So you start getting down the line and you know, I’ve said as a joke before, Well, you know, so the last thing I want to put on your home and it kind of takes people back because they’re thinking, well, you know, I thought you were a green builder. You should want to put solar my home. And I it’s not that I don’t want to put solar on your home.

Doug: It’s literally the last thing that you put on your home.

Victoria: Okay.

Doug: So, so much for having through there. And if you optimize your home before you start installing solar, you can go to the point where that that that solar array that you put it on your roof can go from, you know, making ten or 15% of your total energy to 70 or 80% of your time. Just through all of these all of these pieces and part that you can do to start chopping away at energy consumption.

Victoria: Yeah. Okay. So what if the projects are smaller? You know, if they’re not doing an addition or they don’t need a whole house or model or anything like that, are some of these things also that those smaller projects too? Right.

Doug: Right. And I think that a lot of this kind of falls under the sort of like while you’re here I’ll rubric so you know let’s say you’re doing a kitchen remodel and we’ve all had the experience. We’re like, hey, well, as long as you’re doing the kitchen, you might go remodel my mudroom too. And gosh, my living room gotten a little dated.

Doug: So, you know, you end up kind of spreading out in some cases. Anyway, with when when people are given information about their home, like, geez, your attic is really underinflated and we’re seeing a lot of thermal bridges, you know, in your home generally, you know, maybe some some some infrared images of their home and things like that. If you’re pointing out issues where they really have an honest deficiency in the home, most people would take that as an opportunity to correct those problems.

Doug: At the same time, you know, budget is always an issue, but that is one of the powers of sort of of, you know, using these techniques in building homes, making a home more comfortable and healthy and efficient is that, you know, many times, you know, people are not going to ignore a hole on the roof to to remodel their kitchen and sort of getting to the point where they see this as a deficiency in the House because it is, you know, really helps them make the decision to maybe open up their wallet a little, a little wider and I think that really having control of of of that information and letting them know where they

Doug: could be doing better makes a pretty big difference.

Victoria: So you feel that having that capability and expertise, I’m assuming throughout the employees in your company really makes you stand out and be different than the others in the community?

Doug: Well, Kim, I mean, I’m not saying this is a panacea or that it works every time or anything else. But certainly when it comes to, you know, anybody that I’m meeting in town, that I’m where I’m talking to another person that already knows me and I’m meeting, you know, a new person will you know, I usually say, Doug is you know, is he’s the green building guru in town.

Doug: And and so you sort of it sort of starts becoming something where maybe a little bit of a self liking thing. You know, people that are interested in these issues generally call us. One of the only options that if that is something a hot button issue for them, there’s not a huge number of builders to choose from. So it does differentiates in that regard.

Doug: But I also feel like that reputation helps us in the community just generally and it also is something where, you know, the the people who are out there doing the work and doing the sales and things like that. A meadowlark are, are are aware enough of these issues because we talk about them frequently enough where even if even if they’re stumped and they know something is going on, they can still they can still also get involved with that.

Doug: I’ll still help, you know, help figure out issues and things like that. So while I wouldn’t expect that to say or I couldn’t say that everybody in the company has sort of the level of knowledge that I might have or that certain people in the company might have, we certainly are a company that talks to each other and can figure out these issues as a team.

Victoria: That’s kind of interesting because you obviously are so passionate about it. And you know, again, I’ve known you for so long and you’ve been that way, so I would assume that many of the people you hire, they’ve got to have a certain level of interest and passion about it to fit and to to help support the the positioning of the company.

Victoria: Yes.

Doug: Yeah. I don’t know that we actually really would hire for that. We would I think we would more be interested in sort of the other parts of their enthusiasm in general and their ability to communicate well and and all those things, the things that make a classic good employee. Yeah. Generally speaking, I think that out of a vision level though, for the company, nobody is going to mind working at a company or being affiliated with a company that has a high, lofty goals.

Doug: Right, Right. So if if you know and and I would say that, you know, the environmental concerns for us are one of our sort of our our vision principles and things like that. So, you know, you don’t necessarily have to buy into all that stuff to to work at metal meadowlark. I just think that most people want they know, you know, about what the what the availability of them.

Doug: And to be perfectly honest with you, sort of the dismal state of construction in America. Yeah. You know, it’s something that everybody strives for, for better quality and more forward thinking building in general. And I think that that would be those are the those are the things that attract the type of employees that tend to be more interested in these types of issues.

Doug: Anyway.

Mark: The this this is all really, really interesting, but I’ll be honest, is as fascinating as it is. I’m still stuck on the fact that you went out into the wilderness with nothing and tried to live off the land. That was pretty intense. How long did you go out for? How long did you try to do that for?

Doug: Well, I think the longest time we went out for was about two weeks.

Mark: my God, That blows my mind.

Doug: So there’s a sacred order. It’s a fire shelter, a water, food and and that’s, you know, where that sacred order name came from? I don’t know. But that’s what they call it anyway. And that and to say that if you want to live, you know, you better get a you better get a fire first because it can take a while, especially like raining or something like that.

Doug: And you’re trying to look for, you know, sticks to rub together. Look, it’s not quite that much, but, you know, things like that, you better get that going back because, you know, keeping your body thermally comfortable is the most important thing, which is why shelter comes next.

Mark: That’s first.

Doug: And then now the guys who are the guys who are training us at that time, we would go out with a knife and a big wool blanket and whatever, but they used to call that camping. So the guys that were training us were we’re like, yeah, if you’re, if you’re, if you’re taking a knife and a blanket, you’re kind of shooting a whole bunch of.

Victoria: Could you wear clothes?

Doug: Nowhere near it.

Mark: Well, yeah, it’s.

Doug: It’s its own room. So we’ll make their own clothing and.

Mark: Well, Lisa wasn’t naked and afraid.

Doug: I feel that at our, at the height they could have existed and been healthy. Absent any injuries or anything like that, I could have subsisted from basically late in Michigan, from late April until about late October. And then in the winter, I would have been in trouble.

Victoria: No.

Mark: Well, this probably isn’t going to be as stressful is that situation. But I’ve heard the lightning around comes kind of close, so. and now here’s a reminders advantage. Lightning round. It’s a trap. We’re going to put 60 seconds on the clock. You ready?

Doug: I am ready.

Mark: What is your favorite business book? And why?

Doug: Favorite business book is Blue Ocean Strategy and why I always feel that if you can, even in a crowded industry, you need to find a way to stand out and to make it so that what you’re offering is different from what everybody else is. And so to me, a blue ocean is one where where we’ve created the dynamic, where the other competition just simply are on a different playing field.

Doug: And we have a whole subset of of a particular business, more or less to ourselves or with very few players. But you can also use think of that as almost the life strategy to to go where people are and and make yourself into and out a little bit.

Mark: If you weren’t the owner of a remodeling company, what do you think you’d be doing?

Doug: That is a good question. I think I think I probably would be doing something or laboratory based or, you know, running a company that had something to do with it, with some kind of a scientific output. I mean.

Mark: What do you not very good at?

Doug: What I’m not very good at is regular routine things. The weekly meetings, the h.r. Type functions, anything that is not like a, you know, a shiny object, community center.

Mark: Your room, your desk, or your car. Which would you clean first?

Doug: I guess the one that gets clean cleaning the least frequently is my desk, but that’s probably the one that gives me the most dress.

Mark: So name a movie you’ve seen more than ten times.

Doug: Well, tis the season for Star Wars. The original Star Wars. I think when I was when I first came out, I was probably in sixth grade, maybe fifth grade. And I probably saw that movie 100 times before. There is no such thing as the VCR.

Victoria: wow.

Mark: What’s the last video game you played?

Doug: Galaga. I, i, my son had no idea that I grew up in the era of stand alone video games, so I played it like easily set the high scores, but I only made that I even though I even knew how to play a video game.

Victoria: Okay. Wild. Well, Doug, we really appreciate you taking the time to do this. Very interesting. I love the idea of going where people aren’t doing things that will make you stand out. And you certainly have done that in your market. So thank you so much for doing that. And before you go, however, I want you to share your five words of wisdom with our listening audience and tell us why they resonate with you.

Doug: Well, it’s kind of the same as we just were saying. Stand out from the crowd would be my five words. And boy, it’s a lot easier to to sell anything if you if you’re differentiating yourself and everybody can see it. But it’s more than just about business. It’s about sort of a way of life of making sure that, you know, the appearance that you’re putting into something are can be fully realized.

Doug:

Victoria: That’s wonderful. Thank you so much. Again, it was very generous of you to share. Appreciate it very much. And I look forward to seeing you at the next roundtables meeting.

Doug: Thanks, Dave.

Mark: Thanks, Doug.

Victoria: Bye, Doug. Well, that was pretty darn interesting, wasn’t it?

Mark: It was pretty darn interesting.

Victoria: You know, I don’t know a whole lot of the mechanics of a house or some of the technical things he was talking about. But fascinating stuff. I would never have known that about like the water heater and the chimney and the heat to create the draw and all that stuff. If somebody came to me and told me that stuff as a homeowner, I’d be sitting up and take a notice.

Mark: Yeah.

Victoria: You just don’t know what you don’t know.

Mark: It’s it’s really cool. And I love the fact, you know, though, the whole stand out from the crowd, it’s it’s the cornerstone of positioning your company and marketing. I mean, we just had the marketing Masterclass last week and it was a huge part of it. The French actually call it share share Le Chrono O, which means find the whole and you find a whole you supposed to find a hole in the in the market and fill it.

Victoria: there you go again. Like he said, go where people aren’t.

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. It was good stuff.

Victoria: You know, this is, this is not the first time we’ve talked about green building in this podcast, but it’s one of those things I don’t think enough people take advantage of or think about or start to implement to help them stand out in that marketplace.

Mark: I loved I loved when he said, you know, put putting solar panels is the last thing I want to do is put sort of solar panels on your house, literally, you know, literally it actually it reminds me of that time I went to the bar and I needed to get the wi fi password on the bartender was like, it was like, well, you need to buy a you need to buy a drink first.

Mark: And and I so I ordered a drink. And then after I ordered the drink, I said, Now can I get the Wi-Fi password? And I said, well you need to order drink first. All lowercase, no spaces.

Victoria: Yeah. I thought it was funny.

Mark: But it made me think of that when he said, Well, no, literally, it’s the last thing I want to put on your house. Yeah, do all this other stuff first.

Victoria: Yeah, that was good.

Mark: All right. Well, we want to thank Doug Selby for taking the time to talk to us about green building. And we want to thank you for listening week in and week out. I am Mark Harari.

Victoria: And I’m Victoria Downing. See you next week.