Steve:Welcome to the Tim Faller Show, where production is paramount, and we discuss the tools, time and people associated with getting jobs done and making a profit.
 
Steve:On today’s episode of The Tim Faller Show, we will be talking about production in a large remodeling firm with the help of special guest Bruce Case of Case Design Remodeling in Washington, DC alongside Tim Faller. I’m co-host Steve Wheeler. Here is the Tim Faller Show.
 
Tim:Hey everyone, I’m Tim Faller, and welcome to the Tim Faller Show. Keep those ideas coming in. If you have thoughts, we’re doing a lot of, podcasts on your ideas, so send them in to me at Tim at Remodelers advantage.com. As most of you know. When I really got into remodeling, it was with a company right outside of Washington, DC called Hopkins and Porter, and I went to work for them as a lead carpenter to start with, and then eventually I became their production manager.
 
Tim:And as I got more into the business, I kept hearing about some other company in town called Case Design. And, it was kind of interesting because I had a lot of meetings, we’d be talking about this and that, and someone would say, well, case is doing this, or case is doing that, and then somebody else would say something like, well, we’re not case.
 
Tim:And so then we would move on and maybe, find a solution to what we were, challenged with at the time. Of course, back in those days, a lot of business owners, hung out together through Neri and other, organizations. And so my bosses were all good friends with Fred Case and Linda Case and Mark Richardson, who was, primarily involved in sales, I think, at the time Mark eventually became president company.
 
Tim:And now, Bruce Case has taken the reins at the company. And and from what I’ve seen, I’ve been in their office many times and been able to, interact with their team. And it’s just seems like a great place, to be, and, and so I thought it’d be a lot of fun, to have Bruce on.
 
Tim:He will be our keynote speaker at our production conference in Orlando on September 26th, and I just thought it’d be a lot of fun to have him on and just ask him some questions about growing up around, this company. But also, what’s it like with a big company? So many of us are involved in companies that are in the 2 to 5 to $8 million range, and production is handled in a in a way that fits those companies.
 
Tim:But what’s it like? And also to like, how do you develop a team when you’ve got, you know, 60, 70? I don’t even know how many people working with you. So let’s just jump right into it.
 
Steve:Absolutely. Let’s get started. So Bruce Case is the president and CEO of Case Design Remodeling, one of the largest full service remodeling firms in the nation. Operations are focused in the Washington, DC area and bring clients a unique mix of design, build services through the case brand as well as home care services through Fred, the first name in home repair case has extended its reach across the US through a network of licensees and franchisees since its founding in 1961.
 
Steve:Cases one over 100 national design, remodeling and business Awards and the Case Network has completed over 100,000 renovation projects for over 60,000 clients. Finding these initiatives is a focus on inspiring team members and clients. Welcome to the show, Bruce.
 
Bruce:I’m excited to be here. Thanks, gentlemen.
 
Tim:Hey, this is really fantastic. So, before we get into all the nitty gritty about production, just give us a little bit of a look at case. The intro told us quite a bit, but I’m kind of interested in what’s your structure, I guess, and particularly as it relates to production.
 
Bruce:We’ve got about 170 employees, about half or production in the field, project managers, field support and then the other half for more office. I’m including the sales design teams, accounting technology, those kind of teams. And in the world of production, on the case design side, the larger projects, an average job size of about 120,000, we have eight project managers that each run 5 or 6 lead carpenters, on their teams.
 
Bruce:And then on the Fred side, which is the smaller projects, maybe a ten, $11,000 average job size. That’s more of a true lead carpenter concept. Wow.
 
Tim:Okay. So that’s a lot of people to, to be looking over and managing. So let’s just jump right into it. I know you grew up around this business, and, I just, I guess I just wanted to get a little idea from you personally. Is this something you always wanted to do was to take over as president of Case design?
 
Tim:Or is it something that you kind of grew into as you get a little, little older?
 
Bruce:Yeah. I, you know, I love the crafts since I was, since I can remember. I mean, I was always helping my dad around the house. I was one of those, those people sort of inside handed him the tools as he went. And then I started working in the business when I think when I was 12, which, which might be illegal, I don’t know, but in the summer, but I, I got to an age.
 
Bruce:I still loved it. It’s just I wanted to have my own experience. Okay. I worked in insurance brokerage, so a little bit of a different world for a while up there outside of Boston. And, after I did that for a little while, I wanted, you know, the opportunity to case or, like, in terms. And just what Kate does is truly a passion of mine in terms of remodeling and, you know, bringing people’s homes to life, but also the opportunity to direct a business, you know, to have more say.
 
Bruce:But before I got involved, my dad and I sat down, had a lot of conversations. We had some certain deals that we had made on both sides, things that were important to him and to me, which I think worked for us and I. My wife helped with some other people too, and, and I knew I wouldn’t be president for 10 or 11, 12 years.
 
Bruce:You know, I had to put my dues in.
 
Tim:Did did you actually work in every department in the business? I thought I heard that at one point to kind of get your feet wet. Know what everybody was up against?
 
Bruce:I most departments. Yeah. Not all I haven’t I honestly I do not have a background. I have not worked in the design side of things. Okay. And then accounting and it goes I don’t think anybody wants me working in those, but, but pretty much most pretty much all the other areas I think. So, yeah.
 
Tim:Wow. So I guess one of my questions is having done that, having been in the field, having been a project manager, what are some of the lessons you learned from that that enables you to be a better manager for the company as a whole?
 
Bruce:Well, first of all, I hope I’m a decent manager. We ought to put some of our team members on. Right.
 
Tim:But we have we might not do that.
 
Bruce:That’s fair, that’s fair. But I think it did for me was, was it really gave me an increased level of empathy and respect for what different people do in their different roles and the challenges that might come up. You know, when you actually do something, as you guys know, and you’re on the front lines with it, it gives you a whole different level of appreciation, with it.
 
Bruce:And then I’d say another thing that it’s done for me is it’s it’s helped giving me a bigger perspective of the business and workflows and how how inter-departmental issues are so critical and how, you know, design doesn’t do their thing. It messes up in production. If production doesn’t do their thing, it messes up sales or design or other areas.
 
Bruce:So it helps me when something comes up, or at least I think try to think about globally, how does it flow through the different teams.
 
Tim:So does it help you a little bit with the mediation where you you have two different departments that are kind of fussing about something and you can you can, more intelligently talk about what the challenges are with each department.
 
Bruce:Yeah, definitely. And that never happens in cases you don’t think it’s on Dory, but, you know, it’s it it does it does it. And honestly, you know, sometimes it might be a specific insight that says I’d worked in that role, but bigger picture. It’s that again, respect and empathy. So I understand both parties are coming with their perspective and true to their perspective.
 
Bruce:It’s just working it through, you know, it’s not one party trying to be difficult.
 
Tim:Right? Right. That’s usually the case. And usually where the problem occurs is where one one side feels like the other one is just trying to take advantage of them. In some way. And if you can right mitigate that, it really works out well. So just from your view, so you’re at the, the 30,000 view or the 40,000ft view of your company.
 
Tim:What are some of the things that you think have contributed to the production success? This is mostly about production. So from a production side, just in general, what do you think has contributed the most to the success of the company in that, in that side by far?
 
Bruce:And, you know, this might be sort of a cliche, but it’s definitely the truth by far. Number one I put is our people. You know, whether that’s the culture, you know, inspiring them through growth and opportunity, the way we’ve tried to structure our teams. So that direction was not in the sales. And I see that not in a lot of, so people are one that sort of perspective I talked about is something you.
 
Bruce:We rely on. We can certainly disagree. Everyone has a bad day. You know, there’s all those of things. But know when we just disagree, we just need to do it respectfully. So, and then the other thing I throw out when you’re asked that question that comes to mind is processes. We’ve been doing this since 1961, and in some ways that’s a real advantage.
 
Bruce:The processes are pretty evolved. And but in some ways it’s a disadvantage because I think, you know, we’re in a world of change. And what’s going on? We need to be nimble. But whether that’s processes that tie accountability with empowerment for production and particularly but, you know, all groups. But a lot of times I’ll see remodelers who want to hold their project managers or carpenters accountable for your client experience, but yet they don’t empower them to their own teams or they don’t empower them.
 
Bruce:So the sales force needs.
 
Tim:Yeah. So one of my questions that comes, you know, from that comment is as a such a big company, how do you actually change something? You know, it just strikes me that it once something is ingrained as a sort of doctrine within a company, it is really hard to get, you know, 20 people to change and do it differently, much less 80 people.
 
Tim:So, yeah, what’s the process that you guys use for actually developing processes within the business?
 
Bruce:That’s a great question. I guess to me there’s two types of change. One type is more of a procedural change. You know, like when the Latin RPG came out for the real world example. That was a change for all of us. But we have certain gates in our processes that it can’t go past that gate until we get the right form, the right processes are followed.
 
Bruce:It’s sort of a check and balance. And then once that’s good. So that so like with RPG, we just said it can’t go past this gate until we get the right forms and do the right, you know, processes. That’s one type of change. Those are fairly easy. You know, we educate the team, we call on them. And the gates just won’t let it go until it happens.
 
Bruce:But the other type of change to me is more difficult is more of a a deeper shift in terms of like for instance, communication with clients. You know, how we communicate with clients, we all know that’s changed and it’s more of a decentralized. We’ve got to rely on our teams to do that. And that’s something that, you know, we educate and what we find is roughly a third will jump on the bandwagon, be excited, understand that.
 
Bruce:Third says, no way. Heck no. I’m never going to do that. And the third is in the middle. So it’s just a matter of continuing to work and it can take. I know this might sound ridiculous, but it can take six months sometimes to truly, truly get something implemented, you know, at a high level.
 
Tim:So you’d say, you’d say to somebody listening into this that you gotta work at it for at least six months to to make some of these things take place.
 
Bruce:I absolutely was, again, one of those simple, relatively simple procedural things. You know, that you can use forms and checklist for.
 
Tim:Yeah. So so your people so I know you have a lot of good people that I know. You guys have worked really hard at hiring good people. Any like key to that that you would, throw out to say something that you guys have done that has, just helped you get the right people in the right places?
 
Bruce:I would say the biggest one is, is growth from within. And if I could just expand on that for a minute here, you know, a lot of people are probably thinking that obvious, you know, promote from within, whether it’s a help or do over time, a carpenter or carpenter or a project manager. But we really try to to do that more proactively.
 
Bruce:And certainly we’ve always promoted from within, but now we’re, we’ve got professional development trainings, that we’ve developed so that, for instance, if you’re a helper and you don’t know anything about the craft and you want to get into the craft and you can start as a helper with us, and if you show good things, then we’ll put you as an apprentice on a team, and then we’ll supplement and we’ll have you work with you and we carpenters.
 
Bruce:But in addition, we’ll supplement that with professional development, where once a month is usually from 7 to 8 a.m.. As an example, you’ll come in and you’ll actually do hands on electric 101, plumbing 101 how to deal with inspectors. You’ll hear the soft skills, like how to deal with a homeowner, how to deal with an, you know, a tricky negotiation situation.
 
Bruce:And so our goal is that maybe that can you and I know it takes real world experience, for instance, to be a carpenter, but we can supplement it with some other things. We also, you know, top of the classroom and the hands on training. We also reimburse up to $500 a year for people for it’s called professional development, that maybe they want to take a class at a community college or, or do some other things like that.
 
Bruce:So and we have those going on not just for carpentry, but also for people who want to be project managers. But say you’re a carpenter, you want to see what it’s like to be a project manager. You want to learn a little bit. We have that for that. We have it for sales also. So a couple of those.
 
Tim:So I’m going to front load this question a little bit because it it’s something that I believe in. But do you find that just spending a little bit of extra time training people helps you keep them on your team? That seems to have been the thing for me from many different companies, is that the more you put into people, the more likely they are to stay and to be what you want them to be.
 
Bruce:Yeah, 110% absolutely certainly makes them better. But as you’re saying, I think it inspires them. It makes you feel like they’re part of the company more deeply. But the third thing I’d say, to your point about the return on investment for training is it helps us hire people because when we can hire somebody again, let me use that example of somebody once a trade is relatively young, you know, we talk about this a lot in our industry that we need to inspire more people in our industry, but part of it is training them.
 
Bruce:I mean, if we get a whole bunch of people who don’t know which end of a hammer to hold, but they’re hard workers, that’s great. But it’s hard. But this this has allowed us to attract a lot of really good, stereotypical younger people who want to and show them a pass. So it’s helped in that area, too.
 
Tim:Wow. That’s a whole nother podcast. I think for us, the road to go down there. But, yeah. So I mentioned in the introduction that you’ll be the keynote speaker at our production conference and the main point of the production conference and the summit, the Remodelers Advantage Summit is on team building. And so I’m just kind of curious, you know, with such a large company, how do you keep the team atmosphere?
 
Tim:So and so? Again, let me just preface it a little bit by saying when I interact with smaller companies, they struggle with with a real team because they bring in one new person and it just changes the team dramatically, and they don’t always adjust. So that person feels left out. They feel like they’re not really part of the team, or it’s very lucky that they become part of the team.
 
Tim:So I’m just kind of curious. And again, in my head I’m thinking like 75, 80 people in production and then 100 and something 60 or so in the whole company. What do you do that helps with the team aspect of case?
 
Bruce:Yeah. Well, just just just let me start by, you know, a little truth. And honestly, the reality that’s a challenge, you know, and it’s it’s a constant to keep in tip I looked at my day and the amount of time I spend on this issue. I call a culture between, you know, those types of things. Yeah. It’s gotta be 40% of my time.
 
Bruce:And it’s not always putting out fires or there’s not fisticuffs. I’m not saying that. But the reality is there’s push and pull and different perspectives, and that’s what makes it great. But that causes disagreements sometimes. And so just to put that out there, but but in terms of what we do to try to to help with that one is again, it’s a huge focus of mine.
 
Bruce:And leadership is to try to work well together. And I think a big first step of that is the leaders of different divisions have to work well and respect each other as it starts there because of the head of production, for instance, doesn’t respect or work well with the head of sales or design, right? It’s going to trickle through the team.
 
Bruce:So that’s one thing I would say. Another thing I would say is, is when we bring on a new person, you mentioned that as an example that change the dynamic of a team is we do onboarding. So we spend a couple of days, regardless of what role you’re in, in the field, in the office, you’re answering the phone, the perception that you spend a couple days getting oriented.
 
Bruce:And usually we’ll do one day. It’s more HR and forms and get to know some things. But then we’ll have you back in 30 days to meet with me and other people, to really try to give you the big picture. At best, we can. And I’ve also put you with a mentor for the first hands on the role 2 to 4 weeks.
 
Bruce:Right. And we also give you a job description. So we’re trying to we found new people want to be micromanaged. I know a lot of people listening might cringe at that. I, I know Tim, I just want to know you wouldn’t do that either. The reality is with your brand new job is let’s say you work a vast amount, right?
 
Bruce:And you find in the space shuttle, you would kind of want to be micromanaged. I’d say, yes, I got it. I would do and I think a lot of us lose sight of that, that we don’t want to be micromanaged. So when we hire someone here, we kind of our hands off those people I really feel want to be told what to do color by numbers for the for a while.
 
Bruce:And then sure, once they start, get their feet under a little one.
 
Tim:So yeah, I think that’s a fantastic, observation. And again, using that illustration of getting into something brand new, you know what? I always go like, show me what you want me to do, right? Don’t don’t just don’t just tell me to do it, but show me what you want me to do. I also want to emphasize that you said roughly 40% of your time.
 
Tim:And I just think that’s such a key thing right now with companies to focus on the team and the culture and that sort of thing versus the other things that pull our time.
 
Bruce:Right. And it’s so easy to get drawn into those other things, isn’t it? It’s just, oh, the squeaky wheel, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
 
Steve:So Bruce, you mentioned earlier about the gates and I really would love to hear more about that and expound. I assume that’s basically where the handoff is and where things stop and start in the process. So maybe just expand a bit on the gates or that system. Yeah.
 
Bruce:And and that’s right. And big picture. It’s at those joints where we feel like that’s where we’re are weakest is the where the cartilage in the joints are those of us getting older. No, that’s where we get there. But anyway, so yeah, when for instance, for example, would be when we make when we sign a client signed the contract, that’s a gate in the sense that, you know, there’s a commitment from us to the client there and obviously the client to us, but also then production is getting much, much more involved.
 
Bruce:So before we allow or before we sign a contract with a client, there’s a number of things that need to be done. We need to review the contract, make sure it’s the right form. We want to make sure the project manager has reviewed and they are in our world production approves the sale before it’s made. So before it’s presented they have a review and approve it or estimator looks at it.
 
Bruce:Yeah those are a lot of steps. Yeah. It slows things down sometimes. But you might be slowing the project down maybe by a week, which to us that’s worth it if it allows for us to have success on the back end with the client, but also with our team. So then the project manager, when they when they actually are getting the build the job, they’ve already reviewed it, they’ve seen it, they’ve done a walk through is certainly part of our process.
 
Bruce:But also we make sure then once the sales made another gate is we make sure all the break contract forms like RRP and the right a rescission and all these things that we all that’s another gate. Another gate is at the start of the project. Feel start pre-construction, walk through. We make sure we get the form back. We have a specific form we go through to make sure we hit everything.
 
Bruce:Another gate is mid job, huddle to the middle of a job and it doesn’t have to be the literal middle of the job, but around the middle it’s kind of half time. Let’s let’s you know go through that again. We use a form as a way to make sure as a gate that that’s happening when the job’s finished, that’s another gate.
 
Bruce:So you can tell there’s just probably on a case design 120,000. Our job is probably depend ready, gates. Very cool. Sounds like a pop license diagnosis.
 
Tim:Yeah. So I’m sitting here just with the visual of somebody I don’t know, maybe has to make it to the bathroom really fast. And that key card, that key card that they kept putting in the hotel door won’t let them in the door because it’s not.
 
Bruce:It’s.
 
Tim:Not complete, you know, and when it when it finally connects, when everything is finally right, it lets you in and you can go about the rest of your business, so to speak, so.
 
Bruce:That there’s a go ahead. Go ahead. I’ll just say that was a perfect example, because a lot of most of the time the key card works and we’re not right. Intentionally hold it. If somebody just does everything the way we’ve asked them to and follows the checklist done, they just go right into the room and use the bathroom.
 
Bruce:But yes, you know, those those exceptions and these are brand promise level issues, right? Aren’t they use a blueprint and not a block them.
 
Tim:Right. Yeah. That’s so cool. So one of the big challenges with with people in companies and I suspect that’s as it gets worse as you get bigger and bigger is just the idea that I’ve got a great idea. I’ve got an idea that I think will help case design get better and better and better, but I’m afraid to put it out there or I’m I’m I have trouble putting it out there.
 
Tim:What would you say to somebody like a project manager or a lead carpenter working for a company that thinks they really can help things grow, but they feel like there might be some resistance from the owner of the company. What would you tell them in terms of helping them to push forward?
 
Bruce:I guess my my encouragement would be to say, I think all of us want to work at a company that wants to get better, and they will at least listen to ideas to improve them. You know, the company may or may not do it right, but and if at some point you, somebody listening is working at a company that truly will not listen or will almost be frustrated if they bring forward this idea in a constructive way, then that’s probably not the greatest company for the person listening to the workout anyway.
 
Bruce:So I guess I guess said in reverse, I’d say I’d say bring your ideas forward. Bring it forward constructively, not in the heat of a moment or a frustrating situation, but solid in that you want to presented it to me. It’s presented in the fashion of here’s a challenge and and then here’s the solution. Thank you. Great. Do you want to pilot it?
 
Bruce:I would be willing to be part of the solution. And it’s the response I think you should go in. I think it’s going to be positive. And if it’s not and again, as I said a minute ago, I think that’s an opportunity to really think about what you’re doing in your role and maybe even talk. I tend to be pretty straightforward.
 
Bruce:You can talk to your supervisor said, you know, I brought this idea to you a week ago, and I put a lot of thought into it, and he just didn’t even want to hear it. Can you help me understand? Because I’m just trying to help the company. But again, you’re loud. Maybe that’s not realistic. Maybe I’m idealistic.
 
Tim:Oh, that’s really great. So as we’re starting to wind this down, Bruce, maybe, I think the last thing I wanted to talk to you about was. Is there anything that you guys have done at case that you kind of look at and go, if we had had just done this a little bit sooner, it would have it would have, helped us that much further ahead of where we are.
 
Tim:I guess I’m just kind of looking for that gold nugget that you go like. Yep. If we’d have done that, you know, X, Y or Z, we wouldn’t have had these problems or anything like that that you can share with us.
 
Bruce:Do you have a couple days for the call or on one of your ideas I in? Yeah. Anything that improves things. Honestly, I look back and say, geez, we should have done that earlier. I’d say, well, that’s one of the top ones. The real lesson learned for me was I think people have a really amazing top performer in terms of results.
 
Bruce:Somebody, a top sales person who sells the most and just is consistent and you can rely on them or the top project manager to be carpenter. But yet once in a while we get that person. But in that same body is a disrespectful, very individualistic, not a team player kind of personality. Unfortunately, they’re great reformers in terms of results, but they can tear apart team apart culture.
 
Bruce:And those people, for us at least. And I think a lot of people listening can just it’s amazing what damage they can cause. So the lesson learned was, you know, in terms of what we could have done sooner to your question is to come quickly to, to try to improve them. And if they can’t improve, we’ve sort of got to have some find another job in the parts too.
 
Bruce:Yeah. Performance okay. It is unbelievable. Think of a basketball team and you get a top performer that tears up culture but scores a lot of points. I’d rather get that person asking them what everyone else flourish and win as a team rather than as an individual. So that’s a lesson learned for me.
 
Tim:That’s fantastic. Bruce, I really appreciate you taking some time to be with us on the show today. Fantastic information.
 
Bruce:Thank you very much, and thank you for the opportunity.
 
Steve:Thanks so much, Bruce. Take care.
 
Bruce:All right, gentlemen, take care.
 
Steve:Tim. That was an awesome show. As expected, I love talking to Bruce Cayce every single time I walk away. Just knowing a little bit more and actually, you know, feeling good. He’s an inspiring guy. I love talking to him.
 
Tim:Definitely. I think a couple of really cool personality things about him. He’s very humble. He’s sitting on top of one of the best remodeling companies in the country and is very, very humble about, you know, where he sits and how he sits there and so forth like that. They’re just some great things. I think the thing about people and I know we’re all struggling with this out in the world there, but what I’ll say on top of what Bruce said is, is get the training that you need to develop your people, because that’s going to be key.
 
Tim:You can’t just go through them like, a grist mill. You have to, work with people and train people. This came up 2 or 3 times in that process, and I mentioned it during the conversation. But just the fact that he thinks he spends about 40% of his time trying to develop his people or working on team or culture.
 
Tim:Now, obviously it’s a big company. He has that opportunity because he’s not out there selling. But for business owners that are just, I don’t know how you say it, just bent on selling everything right now. They need to stop and think about what kind of time are they putting into the management of the people, the development of the people.
 
Steve:Well, that’s really what true growth is. You know, and I, I thoroughly enjoyed his gates. You know, that tangible way of, you know, saying this is the hand of not a hand off, you know, it’s the company. You know, it hits a gate and that’s how you open it. And don’t open the gate unless things are checked.
 
Steve:Because, like he said, if it takes an extra week, but you imagine the stress, emotional, financial, everything that can get caused if you don’t have the key right on that gate, it’s it’s a no brainer. I love, love that part.
 
Tim:Well, as you know, Steve, I speak to production people all over the country and in lots of different environments, and you can bet that that’s going to become part of my vocabulary because again, it is a hugely visible visual that you know and forget what we said during the podcast, but I can just envision myself running up against the gate.
 
Tim:That’s closed and locked.
 
Steve:Until.
 
Tim:I have the right key.
 
Tim:And you know what, if the gate is open I will walk through it even if I don’t have the key. Right. And I think that’s really a huge visual for people that came out of this podcast.
 
Steve:Yeah. Awesome. Well once again we would like to thank Bruce Case for joining us. And we want to thank you especially for listening to another episode of The Tim Faller Show.
 
Tim:And remember Tim Faller Show. We’re working hard to eliminate it is what it is from your vocabulary.
 
Steve:I this has been another episode of The Tim Faller Show. Once I hired Tim and fast tracked your growth. Visit remodelers advantage.com/consulting to learn more. And if you’d like more information about roundtables, our world class peer advisory program, please send me an email at Steve at remodelers. Advantage.com. And of course, don’t forget to subscribe to the show and comment on iTunes.
 
Steve: Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.