Mark: Today on Power Tips Unscripted, we talked to Jody McLeod, founder and principal of McLeod Legal Solutions. There are a lot of important legal considerations when you have employees, and they even trickle down to how you handle employee personnel files. Jody’s here to share best practices around employee personnel files and what you need to know. And we’ll hear all about it in just a minute.

Victoria: You’re all. Hi, I’m Victoria Downing, and welcome to Power Tips Unscripted, where we talk about tips, tactics and techniques to help you build a strong, profitable remodeling company. And I’m here with my co-host, Marc Ferrari.

Mark: Hi, there.

Victoria: Oh, yeah.

Mark: How are.

Victoria: You? Is the fun half of the of the duo here?

Mark: You’re not boring.

Victoria: well. Thank you. Glad to hear that. I worry about that once in a while. Yeah, yeah. So today we’re getting into some legal stuff. Yeah. You know, I, you.

Mark: Know, I mean, how much more fun can you get?

Victoria: Well, you know, it’s sort of like people say business would be great for it for the customers. And I know that deal with employees is challenging. And this is just one more challenge that people have to know about. And I and I know I don’t know enough about this. So it’s a great topic for us today.

Mark: I got my notepad ready.

Victoria: Okay. Good deal. All right. So Jody McLeod is the founder and principal of McLeod Legal Solutions, providing businesses with a knowledgeable advocate. Experience working is a true business partner. She focuses in the area of employment law, litigation and litigation management, compliance, investigations and training. So wow, Jody, you know a lot about employees, right? Yeah.

Jody: I try to.

Victoria: How did you get into this kind of law?

Jody: I started my career as, state prosecutor, and, my first, my first thought was to be a career prosecutor. But, you know, I decided that that was a little too depressing, but I enjoyed the work. And so what I went to a corporation and started focusing on the employment law, because you can’t make some of those situations up, that employees, that employees try to bring forward.

Jody: And I figured it would be really very, a nice segue for me. And, I, I’ve enjoyed it. I have done employment law focus with litigation as a, as another part of my repertoire. Oh, probably for over 30 years now.

Victoria: Okay. Wow. It’s a when clients come to you for your expertise, what are the issues typically around?

Jody: well, generally, I first come in contact with a client when they have a problem, and that’s always the wrong time to come. I like to hit them at the beginning as opposed to the end, because, I always tell my clients, look, if you haven’t been sued, you’re going to be sued sometime. and by employees.

Jody: And so you want to be prepared and so how to be prepared. And so I talk, I talk them through their processes, which also includes personnel files, but I talk them through their processes. What happens if you’re sued? Because that’s going to be your first line of defense as are your processes, and that your processes were followed.

Victoria: Is there one sort of common problem that happens? One sort of problem, cause of these suits that you see?

Jody: I’d like to say one common cause, but, generally when an employee is let go for, a reason and they’re angry, that anger turns into litigation. And so, I always say be prepared because what, what I see from a, from my clients is, you know, business gets in the way. You know, they’re busy doing their business, making sure their business is profitable.

Jody: And, then the documentation or the dotting the i’s, crossing the T’s is, not, followed correctly. And so then you end up having to try and disprove a negative.

Victoria: Okay. So now I know we’re going to talk about the filing personnel files in a minute, but are there other what are some of the other parts of the process that you really need to be aware of?

Jody: I have a complete onboarding process. Follow it religiously. Have adequate training for your managers. Having I would always recommend one person or one department that’s responsible for the employment process, from hiring to termination.

Victoria: okay. All right. And why is that?

Jody: it’s it makes it consistent. you know, it it precludes claims of discrimination or that you’re acting in, on a in a different manner towards one employee than another. and make sure that you’re following, the complexity of the law. If there’s anything that I can say as the employment law, area has just, ballooned and it really takes a compliance approach to make sure that the employer is being compliant.

Victoria: Okay. Okay. That’s really interesting. Let’s let’s dive into these files. And I want to circle back with some questions after that. Sure. What was a what are some of the requirements around personnel files that our members, our listeners should know about?

Jody: I always say document, document and document again. So whenever you’re dealing with an employee, even if it’s verbally, there should be something in the file that reflects that conversation. What happened during the employment tenure of that employee? just to make sure that your position, if you ever have to, support why you’ve done something is is followed and it’s, it’s verified.

Jody: So I always look at a personnel file as a good news file for the employee, for the employer. In other words, if anyone comes and asks, you did this happen? When did this happen? You can go to your good news file and pull out a piece of paper that says yes. He got his handbook on this date and he signed for it.

Jody: Yes, he was talked to about his raise. Here it is. You know, just all those types of things.

Victoria: So just I have to set stuff, have to be signed by the employee.

Jody: I sometimes sometimes they refuse to sign it. You know, I mean, so you have to just have, something that a, someone could say. Hey, I did this. I had this conversation with Jimmy on this date, and here’s what I said. So let’s say you’re having a performance review, and it’s, you know, there’s some there’s some areas of, shortfalls in the performance of Jamey.

Jody: I always tell my, employers, my clients. Hey, make sure that you create a memo contemporaneous with that conversation and indicate this is what I said to Johnny, so you don’t have to go back and try and recall what you said. You know, you said, because lawsuits can go anywhere from 3 to 6 years in the future.

Jody: And so you want to be able to make sure that you can go back into that file and have a piece of paper that reflects what happened.

Mark: I assume then you’d probably, want your clients to be printing emails and putting them in the folders and those kinds of things.

Jody: yes. sort of. yeah. So it depends on what the email is. I think it’s more important to have a process. So you first start at the beginning. What is your process going to be. And then after the process is determined then where can I have a standard form prepared for throughout the process? and then the person that you’ve designated, let’s say it’s the head of HR designated as responsible for that process.

Jody: That person will then do, yearly audits of their personnel files to make sure, hey, did so-and-so give us this? Did so-and-so receive their handbook? I notice that so-and-so didn’t, submit his vacation requests. I need Johnny or Susie to sign off on this. If if the documentation is in the form of an email. Yes. The documentation to and to ensure that something happened at a certain time.

Jody: Yes. That should go in the file.

Victoria: So, for example, if you gave an employee, unpaid time off, that should be written up, put in their file. So it’s there in case that person ever to come back and say, I need to get paid for this. You didn’t write exact like.

Jody: And also, if there was a deliberative process you were evaluating, let’s say someone came in and said, I have an MLA request, family medical leave. And, it’s you might be in a state that has paid leave. You might be in a state that doesn’t require you to have paid leave, and you’re deliberating whether they meet the requirements under the FMLA law legislation.

Jody: That process. Yes. He he met the hours requirement. Yes. He gave a, significant reason, a significant health reason for that. justifying that small like make sure that’s in there.

Victoria: Okay. All right. So, you know, obviously if you don’t have something written down, part of the risk is that somebody, anybody can say you said anything or didn’t say anything, right?

Jody: And as a former litigator and a litigation manager for a large fortune 500 company, when there’s a lawsuit involved, which means potential money at the end, people lie. So you have to be prepared to support your position, and you’re not you cannot hope that the person’s going to be honest.

Victoria: so okay, so tell me more about some of the risks. If we’re not keeping up these files properly.

Jody: you could have. I mean, it could cross, you could have the lawsuits. You could have the federal government coming in and doing an audit. whether you’ve, you know, followed the Ada Americans with Disabilities Act to the FMLA. But I think from a from a I mean, those are all risk. The risk is litigation. And why do I say that litigation is costly?

Jody: It’s time consuming. And it takes everyone’s eye off the business. Right. And so it’s very, very important that you are prepared that if a lawsuit happens and that could, that you are in the best place possible. So you can still run your business, but, financially and profitable, but also it doesn’t take too many people away from the business.

Victoria: Can you talk a little bit more about the process that you’ve referred to?

Jody: You should have, a standard process of how you hire people, how you, job description is, for every position within your department and everything should be standardized. And if it’s changed, then all the, all the forms are changed. You should have, a process on, on your I nines. Where, where do you keep your eye knives?

Jody: are your eye nines? up to up to snuff? Are they within the regulations of the federal government? What about if you’re hiring people that are have, a green card or, an H-1b visa or something of that? How are you handling that? So you should have a process that address your business. What happens within your business?

Jody: Because what happens in ABC business doesn’t necessarily happen in X, y, z business. So you want to make sure that it it covers how you do business. And then you should have someone that were you. Either you have an outside counsel that you you can pick up the phone and call and ask a question or you have someone in HR that is pretty knowledgeable because the laws change, the laws change around non use of non-compete.

Jody: The law changes around family medical leave as we saw it within the pandemic and, you know, whether it’s paid or not. so you want to have someone that’s, that’s their job, and then you also want to have an advisor that you feel comfortable talking to that person and you establish it. I always like to say fruits to nuts.

Jody: so, you have it from the start of the employment and then how do you handle terminations? You have how do you handle interviews? Who’s on the interview team. So it should be very complete. So there’s no holes for someone to come in and said, say I wasn’t given an opportunity for this job. I wasn’t I wasn’t asked this question.

Jody: I wasn’t given this opportunity. I wasn’t given this training. you want to make sure all of that is covered, including, you know, having routine training, making sure that that’s documented and that should all then go in to the personnel file for Johnny or Susie.

Victoria: Okay. So one of the most fraught parts of running a small business is the firing of people. Yes. Are there any specific rules you can share that just have to be super careful to follow? If you want to protect yourself?

Jody: You have to be honest. If if Johnny or Susie is having a performance problem, you need to address it timely. You need to be very clear of what it is and clear on your expectation. If you tell them that they have, they have to get this taken care of. Let’s say it’s they’re not coming in on time.

Jody: They’re they’re constantly late. You have to bring that attendance issue to them. You first say as a as an, concerned employer. Are you having trouble at home? Is there something that I need to be aware of? Do we need to have an adjustment of your hours? Why is, you know, just making sure that you’re there to help them.

Jody: If you kind of work that piece out and then say, however, I need you here at this time, whether you adjust their hours 15 minutes or half hour or you say, look, you’ve just got to you’ve got to make sure that the car has gas on it. If that’s the reason that you’re light and then you, you monitor it and then you’re you’re you’re, file should reflect that.

Jody: You had this conversation and and then you’re checking on them not micromanaging, but you’re checking to make sure his life is good. Now, if then you let them know. Hey, you know, this is the second time this week that you’ve been late. you know, the next time I’m going to have to write you up or the next time, whatever your progressive discipline process is, you make sure you follow that.

Jody: And at the end you have an interview and say, I’m sorry. You know, this is the fourth time you’ve been late within the month. and in fact, you missed a meeting or whatever it is, whatever it is your tipping point. You make sure that you have that conversation and, you know, you follow through your exit process.

Victoria: Okay. All right. So that documentation is so important.

Mark: I’ve I’ve heard that when you have these kinds of conversations, you should never be one on one. You should have somebody a witness of some sort.

Jody: Absolutely. You should always have someone else in the room. And generally it’s the manager of Johnny and someone from HR.

Victoria: Now, you know, a lot of our listeners are small businesses. They might have seven employees, maybe ten, maybe 15. So. And, we have 13. There is no HR department.

Jody: Yeah, but there’s always someone that’s responsible for HR. At some level, they might not have the HR title. Right. But there’s someone that does that and or and if they don’t you you should probably designate that person. And that person needs to be a trusted confidant within the business. But pretty much not a yes person, but someone that everyone feels is as straight narrow as on the straight and narrow.

Jody: Yeah, and that person that can make sure a that the, the, the meeting that happens takes some of that emotion out between the supervisor and the employee. That’s being reprimanded or terminated kind of diffuses that situation. And, you know, kind of talks the company talk and the the process discussion.

Victoria: Okay.

Jody: All right. Now, in larger companies, what happens is especially on, terminations and terminations of, you know, someone of long tenure or a high level, the manager will go in and I will advise them, don’t be in longer than ten minutes. And then what happens is he he brings the bad news or whatever the bad news, as he leaves that employee with the HR person or that designated person that’s handling the the paperwork, and then it becomes it’s not an emotional it’s not an emotional ending because the emotion has left, you know?

Jody: Yes. This is not the person that he’s angry this employee’s angry with. It’s a person that’s just kind of making sure all the documents are signed.

Victoria: So you have a question mark. You want to go?

Mark: Well, I just, it’s kind of I don’t even know if it’s a question. Maybe it’s just kind of the statement in your your feelings on it, but, there’s, it’s going to be two parts. So should every business owner have, Jodi on in the wings that they just call whenever they have a question? And I guess moving on from that, what’s your, I guess, your opinion on Google?

Mark: Because, you know, what actually happens is I just run the Google and say, can I do this, this and that with my employee, and then you get a thousand answers.

Jody: Well, the well, okay. So the first question, should you have a Jodi? I would say yes, because you want someone to be able to kind of call back and forth. Now I have clients that I have retainers for that very reason. They have so many hours a month or so many hours, a quarter that they call me and, you know, ask whatever they want to ask.

Jody: And generally it’s checking the thinking, you know, am I overthinking it? They’ll ask. And that establishes a rapport. I get what they’re looking for. I understand their business and they understand how I think, so that that relationship works well. As for going to Google, the problem is state laws vary. So what you might be able to do in, Massachusetts, you can’t do in Michigan.

Jody: so you run that risk. So case in point, over the pandemic, with all the remote work people were working. Oh, I don’t know. From they went from New York to Florida. Well, the tax laws are different. And how did how did the employer know that Johnny was working in Florida? He was paying New York taxes, you see.

Jody: So the problem becomes a Google doesn’t always capture what you’re asking or what the issue, as you want to make sure that is there a nuance that I need to be aware of. So non-compete you know, a lot of businesses use non non-compete agreements. Illinois just, just, established new legislation, passed new legislation that restricts non-compete to anyone who’s in a position that makes $75,000 a year or above.

Jody: So anyone below 75,000 can’t be subjected to a non-compete. And, oh, by the way, the employer has to pay consideration for a non-compete agreement in Illinois. Well, that’s different than any other state. So it’s those types of nuanced issues that it’s really important that you need to you don’t need to hire the lawyer so much as you need to run something by a lawyer.

Mark: It’s it’s interesting because we’ve recently had a situation and I ran to Google.

Victoria: Well now I’m going to ask you about that sort of situation. Yeah.

Mark: Of this. Well because it was, it’s like if an employee has and I did find it’s different across all the different states. Right. I had to try to I was looking at Maryland and trying to, trying to suss out is this actually the Maryland situation? Because, you know, employee left suddenly and then they have all this equipment.

Jody: Yeah.

Mark: And so, I’m thinking, well, I go to Google and I’m thinking, can I withhold the pay until I receive the equipment or, or something like that? Right. And, and actually the first answer I saw was yes from a federal perspective. Yeah, but but then when I dug deeper, I saw that Maryland said, no, no, no, you will be violating all kinds of stuff,

Jody: Under wage and our law, the everyone should be you should the premises you you have to be paid for time worked and so they were they worked. They need to be paid. A court will look at the the return of equipment as a separate issue.

Mark: Right. Different.

Victoria: So let’s say let’s talk about when an employee quits a little bit. Because right now, you know, the market is so crazy that people are getting offers and they’re, you know, people are moving around a lot. Right? Oh, and so on. So if an employee quits and they say, I’ll give you two weeks, but you don’t want to give them two weeks, do you have to?

Jody: generally not. But often times employers will pay them for the two weeks. that let you know if they give their notice and say, I’ll give you two weeks notice here. I’m just going to pay you for the two weeks. Goodbye. you know, the employer doesn’t. It depends on the status of the employee. Oftentimes, we want an at will employ.

Victoria: Yep.

Jody: Sometimes it doesn’t work out that way. Depends if they have an agreement. And so, you know, every, you know, fact sensitive. But generally if the the employer wants to terminate them on on Thursday, they can if the employee wants to leave on Thursday on a, you know, voluntarily terminate, he can the issue is like you said, I want to I’ll give you two weeks notice.

Jody: Well, if you feel that it’s more detrimental to you both because access to information or it’s going to just cause, trauma in the workplace because emotional trauma, it might be to say, you know, today will be your last day, and we’ll pay you till the till Friday, or we’ll pay you the two weeks or whatever. But you’re not obligated.

Mark: Okay. Yeah.

Victoria: That’s obligated. Okay. Good. So and there’s no recourse from an employer who has an employee quits suddenly and leaves in two days.

Jody: No, no.

Victoria: Okay. No. You know, you know.

Jody: Where employers are. Usually the last one in line.

Victoria: Is.

Jody: Law, you know? So, yeah. but, you know, it’s really interesting when you look at what’s going on in the workforce today. happy employees aren’t going to do that, right? Employees that are treated correctly aren’t going to do that. it is when a situation’s become so awful or. Yeah, so awful that they would do that to an employer.

Jody: Now if they haven’t developed the relationship, you know, they’re new and they, they went to, you know, employer A and then employer B was a, you know, a couple of weeks that they haven’t created that bond with that employee, employer. But it’s it is really important on how you manage and how you treat your employees in today’s environment than it ever has been before.

Mark: Hey, this is Mark cutting in with a quick break to tell you about our masterclass series of courses. These courses are intimate two day sessions of rich, interactive information with plenty of hands on instruction. We cap our classes at 12 to 15 individuals, which means more opportunity to work one on one with your trainer. All our instructors are well known, respected industry experts and some of the best in their field of expertise.

Mark: To see which courses we currently have available. Visit remodelers. advantage.com/masterclass. Now back to the show. Okay, I have to ask this. It just popped in my head and it’s something that’s always been on my mind. And yes, got you trapped. Yeah. All right. from a hiring perspective or someone else, the whole, referral situation where an employee puts me down as a referral and their prospective, new employee wants to call me to ask questions or convert that I want to call, you know, past employees like, what can and can’t be said because I’ve heard thousands of things about what you can and can’t say in that.

Jody: I always say name, rank, and serial number, right? I mean, seriously, the firm.

Mark: That they employ, they were employed.

Jody: They were employed, position that they held, that type of thing. Yes.

Victoria: So should you, you I mean, I know that I’ve called people to get a reference and they’ll say name, rank, serial number and they’ll say, that’s all you’re getting. Yeah. So don’t bother. Ask me more. But when people call me and if I like the employee, I tend to carry on a bit.

Jody: I wouldn’t do that.

Victoria: Yeah, okay.

Jody: I, I would do it because you know why? There’s nothing to say. What you did say there’s nothing that’s being recorded or. And they’re going to say she said these terrible things because you might be saying this. And what if she doesn’t get the job? or and so then she finds out that you might have said some things.

Jody: She doesn’t know what you said. She wasn’t on the call. And so I’m just saying it’s if you have a process, you follow that process. And the process is name, rank and serial number.

Victoria: Got it. Wow.

Mark: So really the whole referral thing is pointless exercise.

Jody: Right?

Victoria: Okay. There’s a book out there called, hiring Smart by, Pierre More. No, I think it’s name. It’s author. And in there he said one way to get around that. And if you think about this, do you call after hours and you leave a message and you say, I’m calling to check, you know, get a reference for so-and-so.

Victoria: And so and so if you really liked her or him and would hire them again, give me a call back at, you know.

Jody: Well, I mean, if I receive something like that, just my suspicious mind, I would say, am I being set up? I mean, I just,

Victoria: I just, I you are suspicious. I am that wouldn’t across my mind.

Mark: She thinks like me.

Victoria: Lawyer, lawyer brain. Hey, Jody, do you have to have one like, crazy, crazy story you could share with us?

Jody: Why have a good story? And I think this is a good. I have tons of crazy stories. I mean, I’d have. I’d talk your ear off on that. And because you can’t make this stuff up, that’s the thing. I mean, but I have a good story and it it really kind of focus. It’s around personnel files. And this is what this kind of explains why it’s important.

Jody: I have this one client that in all my 30 plus years, and I don’t want to tell you how long I’ve been working, because then they’ll tell you how old I am. And I don’t like to do that. but it is probably the best process, the best handbook, the best. and it’s it’s what they do with their employees.

Jody: just seems like overkill, but it was the best. And here’s the here’s the reason this person is in the remodeling business. Because a lot of my clients are small remodeling businesses. He, his process is just very, very, I don’t know, almost looks okay. You know, I we do. This is how we do it. We have these many people in on interviews and all of that.

Jody: they had a situation where they had someone who used to work privately for himself in the building trade, came and worked for this particular remodeler. he was working on a, home dealing with the homeowner with. But there were other people involved. It wasn’t just this one employee working at that home. It was about, oh, probably about five other employees working there.

Jody: There was an issue about something that the homeowner wanted to do, an increase in costs. So the salesperson, the one that sold the job to this woman, was going out and explaining this. The employee who had been working on the project went before the scheduled meeting to kind of give her an end run and basically really dissed his employer.

Jody: Okay, so they go to this meeting and they find out what happens, he gets terminated. that’s what they want to do. He violates that. He was insubordinate. He violated all the protocols that are in this. and he wanted, a bonus that was, forward bonus, a pro-rated bonus that he would have gotten in about a month, four weeks time period.

Jody: And they said, no, you’re not going to get it. Now, obviously, they were talking to me about this, but no, you’re not going to get it. we ended up we we gave him in the no letter. I said, why don’t you just offer him, you know, $500 or whatever and just say for your next chapter to start, you know, kind of soften the blow?

Jody: Well, he was, like, totally upset by that. And he goes to a lawyer and I get a lawyer’s letter. I sent his personnel file. That was just full of everything that they did and all the comments and, written statements by everyone involved in the process sent them the copy of the handbook. I never heard from that person again.

Jody: And I want everyone to understand, because that lawyer is making the evaluation, because that lawyer’s a business person, too. And that lawyer’s deciding, am I going to put good money after this? Am I going to make money? Am I going to get him any money? She’s making those evaluations herself. Never heard from them again.

Victoria: Wow.

Jody: That’s the benefit of having a complete personnel file. And in my I’m telling you, that is the best story I have when it comes to personnel files, handbooks and avoiding litigation.

Victoria: Hey, last question. Do you have any? Before we wrap it up, go on to the lightning round. Do you have any best practices that you want to suggest to members that we haven’t touched on yet?

Jody: I think training is really important to training your managers on how to be good managers to their employees, what you know, when to have the conversation be consistent in the conversations, having regular touch base, as are team meetings. I think training kind of get a training. The manager. How to be a manager is usually lost. I think that’s very important.

Victoria: Okay, great. Thank you so much.

Mark: Well, I have like five more questions.

Victoria: Oh yeah.

Mark: There’s a it’s and it’s in the lightning round. Are you ready?

Jody: Okay. I’m ready.

Mark: Oh and now here’s the reminders. Advantage lightning round. It’s a dry place. We’re going to put 60s on the clock. What is your favorite business book and why?

Victoria: My favorite business book.

Jody: I like start with why buy Simon Sinek? I think it really allows a business to focus on why I’m doing all of this and allows, oh, allows the employees to feel a part up. So I like that book.

Mark: If you weren’t a lawyer, what do you think you’d be doing?

Jody: I’d probably be on the other side, the creative side of my brain, and I’d probably be an interior designer. Or I’m a stay at home stager.

Victoria: Oh, nice.

Mark: What are you not very good at?

Jody: slowing down and smelling the roses. I’m just my brain. It doesn’t have to be work, but it just, you know, I would be kicked out of a meditation class.

Victoria: And.

Mark: I’m saying she’s just like me. Your room, your desk or your car? Which would you clean first?

Jody: I would clean my room, and I. And if anyone doubts that you need to see Admiral, William McRaven, commencement speech on. If you want to change the world, make your bed.

Victoria: Yeah, yeah, I.

Jody: Haven’t seen I love that.

Mark: Yeah. What’s your biggest pet peeve?

Jody: and people that don’t return calls, people that don’t return them timely. because, you know, I kind of. I’m a planner, so I plan and, you know, I’m waiting. I can’t do something unless something else happens.

Mark: I. Well, that’s where we’re different in. In one word, describe your high school self.

Jody: Nerdy.

Victoria: That’s great. Jodi, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us. How do how would our people learn more about you and your company?

Jody: I have a website, McLeod Legal solutions.com. I also am on LinkedIn. Jody McLeod McLeod talks about what I’ve done. I’ve been in the corporate world my whole career. I started out as a prosecutor, so I have that litigation experience and I can give you a different perspective of what a lawyer is. I like to refer to myself as really as a business person who happens to wear a lawyer hat.

Victoria: Yeah. Okay, great. That’s awesome. Now, before I let you go, I want you to share your five words of wisdom with our listening audience and tell us why they resonate with you.

Jody: Your gut is always right, and it resonates with me because I overthink. And then I think when I kind of relax and think about what I’m, worried about, I just go to my gut and it’s never helped. You know? It’s never done me wrong. And when I haven’t listened to it, I it was not the right. It was not the right way to go.

Victoria: All right. That’s awesome. Yep, I like it. So thank you so much. We appreciate you being here.

Jody: Thank you.

Victoria: See you again soon. Yeah.

Jody: You as well.

Victoria: Bye bye. That was pretty interesting. Makes me want to go right out and start documenting more stuff. You’re getting. Yeah. Getting our managers to document more stuff.

Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah. it’s in, you know, talk about gut. I always kind of thought, you know, it makes sense. I mean, yeah, document everything. But, you know, I never think to go back and write down a conversation I had or put it, you know. You know, I mean.

Victoria: I know now.

Mark: I’ve had conversations and definitely never with, like, bringing in witnesses.

Victoria: Right, right. But I don’t think you need witnesses to, to say, you know, you screwed up or. I mean, it sounds like that document, even those conversations about you know, you’re not doing your job or you’re coming in late or this isn’t working or, you know, all those conversations and, you know, we had to have tough conversations with employees from time to time and, you know, just about all sorts of things.

Victoria: And I guess now to push.

Mark: I mean, it seems to me I don’t I didn’t ask you this specifically, but for me, I would imagine a good process would just be to after having a conversation, go back and fire an email off to that person saying, just to,

Victoria: Reiterate.

Mark: Reiterate our conversation xyzzy ABC. And then I have that document that.

Victoria: I mean, it just really isn’t an area to be casual about.

Mark: No, it it’s true. You know, like she said, if even if you haven’t been sued, you will one day. Right. So. Right. Have all your stuff and hopefully you do it like her one remodeling client and all it took was her to send the personnel file and chair back from the lawyer again. So like it? That keeps your costs low too.

Mark: Yeah, they didn’t have to pay her for all these hours of work.

Victoria: That’s right. That’s all right. Paid off.

Mark: Yeah. That’s good. All right, well, I want to thank Jody for sharing her legal expertise with us. And I want to thank you for listening week in and week out. I’m Mark Harari.

Victoria: And I’m Victoria Downing. See you next time.