Mark: Today on Power Tips Unscripted. We’ve talked to Tina Clements, VP, CPK of the retail performance company. Did you know employees thrive on feedback? Then why is it that so few leaders proactively provide it? Tina is here to answer that question and share some simple steps on how to provide timely, respectful, and actionable feedback to your employees. And we’ll hear all about it in just a minute.

Victoria: Hi I’m Victoria Downing and welcome to Power Tips Unscripted where we talk about tips, tactics and techniques to help you build a strong, profitable remodeling company. And I’m here with my co-host, Mark Harari.

Mark: Yeah, you are again.

Victoria: Yup, yup. How are you, Mark?

Mark: I’m good.

Victoria: I can’t quite see you through this monitor, but I know you’re over there. I see the top of your head. You sort of like that Tim Allen, neighbor.

Mark: Yes, we’re we’re social distancing.

Victoria: That’s right, that’s right. We have an exciting topic today.

Mark: Performance feedback.

Victoria: something I dread giving.

Mark: But we can definitely do better at it. especially now because everybody’s remote so.

Victoria: They can’t hit you.

Mark: That’s funny. Yeah.

Victoria: That’s true. They can still yell at you, but.

Mark: Actually, that would make it easier, wouldn’t it?

Victoria: no. I’d probably cower like a kicked puppy.

Mark: Yeah, well, it’s it is because you don’t. You don’t even see where we’re in short spurts now with our staff and with our employees and with our peers. So because of the short spurts, it feels like it’s even less important, not less important. It’s just not top of mind to give constructive feedback. So anyway, but.

Victoria: Yeah, it’s so important for building our teams. And we all know that our teams are what help us get out of the one man show mentality and grow and do a real strong business. So it’s awesome. So let’s kick it off here, shall we?

Mark: Please?

Victoria: Tina Clement is a leader, speaker, author, coach, entrepreneur, contributor, judge Percom, contributor and facilitator leading luxury industries for over 25 years. Her clients confirm she is a communications expert and her book, the Art of Facilitation and Keynote Address yes, you do have a choice are testaments to her talents we are delighted to have with us. Tina Clements.

Victoria: Tina, welcome.

Tina: Hello, gang. It’s my honor to be here. Thanks for having me.

Victoria: Oh, you bet it’s a great topic. How did you get started in your career? In talking about this.

Tina: I failed miserably. That’s that’s honestly how I. So it truly all began, in 2003, in the early, early 2000, when I entered my first foray into human resources, I had been learning and development my entire career. I’ve been a leader, throughout up until that point, until Human Resources, when I was a performance management manager for BMW of North America.

Tina: That’s where I had to give feedback consistently and realized very quickly I was doing it wrong. I was doing it inaccurately. And it’s so interesting because, the way you both explained feedback and I was actually ferociously taking notes as you are opening your show, you said, oh, hi, I dread doing it. They’re going to be yelling at you.

Tina: I could they could hear you. I would cower, etc. I mean, see, this is why this is the reason why we don’t do it, why we don’t actively, proactively do it. So to answer your question, please. And I was one of those people. And then I had to and I learned pretty quickly what I was doing wrong and was able to thank goodness I had very good mentors and was able and I actually was coaching myself, was able to shift and elevate and whatnot and, and learn to be able to not only give feedback confidently now, but be able to teach it to others so they can do so as well.

Tina: That was a really long answer. I just realized that that was true. Yeah. I think you have to fail to know how to do it accurately and well.

Victoria: You know, I remember giving feedback to a promising young employee and having her immediately quit. So obviously I am still doing it wrong. So I am on hear how to do it right. So why? Why bother giving performance feedback? I mean, don’t people sort of get it? Don’t they know what they’re supposed to do and how to figure it out just by like, would you give them the side eye?

Victoria: Right.

Tina: I that’s hilarious. That’s hilarious. First of all, the feedback you get that might have been you would have given great feedback because sometimes you performance manage a person out which is not a negative thing. True. If you if you’re doing it the right way, where the person realizes, hey, I don’t have the skill set, or I do have the value of what this organization chooses to exit, that means you’re actually doing your job well.

Tina: So we’re just going to spin that. Victoria.

Victoria: There you go. See, already you’re giving me feedback that makes me feel better.

Tina: All right. So the reality is first of all you need to do it. That’s that’s step one. And Mark, I think you said it was that top of mind because we’re all remote from each other. So we’re all we have that big excuse of, well, I can’t see them, so I don’t have to give you the feedback. Right.

Tina: So the second one is to actually do it. And you’re and waiting for an annual performance review is not feedback giving. That’s not that’s not what the theme of this is. It must be immediate and it must be supportive. And the first step in giving feedback is asking yourself why you’re doing it. If you are in any capacity and you find yourself giving feedback, from an egotistical perspective, from a selfish perspective, from a looking to blow out somebody else’s hands, to make your shine brighter perspective, which a lot of I’ve seen that in my in my world.

Tina: Then you have to check yourself right at the door and say, time out for am I getting feedback to help this person elevate, get to the next level? And to really answer your question directly, giving feedback, is like swimming a swim race, and I don’t know if anyone out there is really swum as well as I did a few times and realize I hated it and have stopped.

Tina: That’s another podcast you could hear when you’re swimming in a race. Clearly there’s a seesaw somewhere and you know, sure. And then you end up another shoreline. And the key to swimming is to head out. So your face is the water. You’re swimming is something you pick up your head and you see where you’re going towards your target.

Tina: And you keep swimming in that direction. And I swim a race and get out of the water and thought I had won the race, but really I was at a different beach and everyone else. So I ran. That’s what it is. And so how we relate that is, is swimming. Some race is just like getting feedback or you have to give people the feedback so they know if they’re headed in the right direction, they have to head up.

Tina: And sometimes employees and personnel, they can’t do that on their own. So they know they don’t get it. No, you can’t just give them a nod. No, you can’t say, hey, do it better and think they know what that means, especially if they’re new. Right? So it’s it has to be immediate. It has to be for the right reason, and it has to be given.

Tina: and then of course, the next part is so how do you do that. Yes. How, how and when do you do that. Right. And it’s like a job acceleration. You don’t wait till it’s too long and go. Can you for a second fluffy want to discuss with you know this just having nose in it. Let’s figure it out.

Tina: Right. So step number one is after the thing happens for the person is performance feedback. It’s, Hey, Kelly, got a second? Hey, let’s talk about this. How do you think that one and the first. So right away if you do the. Hey, can I get on your calendar for tomorrow at four to discuss the thing, what you have just done and provided 24 hours with that person will be sent to their summit, and they’ll do nothing.

Tina: But they go down the spiral and the rabbit hole. You’ve given that person the opportunity to create a story, and that is how it’s like when you’re in a relationship with someone and the game plan, you know, and you go and you talk to your friend about the problem they’re having, as opposed to telling the person that you’re at break, right.

Tina: Hey, you got a second? Let’s talk about this. Right. Immediacy is really critical. when giving performance feedback. And then the next step is they say, yes, hey, you know, you get a little feedback and well, first of all, do you think they’ll get there, get their input? Okay. Ask them permission. Nobody ever says no, right? Of course.

Tina: Knock out the doors open and say so what I saw was using the word I pronoun as opposed to I’ve heard. I’ve been told, people have come to me and told me, now sometimes you have to and we can certainly talk about that. But I notice that it’s me, so the person cannot immediately deflect. Oh, who said that?

Tina: And what’s it? No, no, no, this is what I’ve noticed. And then you say what? The thing is, I notice that, you know, you’ve been 15 minutes late every day this week. I notice that you’re sliding into home with the deliverables, but I know you can be giving a to I whatever the thing is, and then say, I’m telling you this because I cannot tell you how many years.

Tina: And again I fail the this forget the why. If you set expectations just like the two of you did for me before, we right every single one one minute. The reason I’m telling you this, Kelly, is because I think you could be fabulous. And the only thing that’s getting in your way right now, Kelly, is you. And I don’t want anyone to be saying anything behind your back.

Tina: So listen for us. So what’s what’s really going on for you when you tell people the why the tension reduction in their shoulders are visible, you can and that’s what you’re looking for, right? Because I think, you know, you will finish with some beginning. We’re terrified. Most leaders don’t get feedback because they’re afraid. Conflicts okay. Well conflict is leadership my friends.

Tina: Yes, yes. If you want to be a leader, you have to be prepared to swim in public to your fingers. Get for me means this is leadership, right? It’s because when you’re leading, you’re dealing with emotion. It’s not right, is it? They say work is an emotional best. Who are all emotion, right? We all we all lead with emotion, not the Harvard Business Review.

Tina: There was a study years ago that they did an analysis. 95% of all decisions are emotionally based, 5% rational. Right. So review all the emotion. So from there I want to see your back to that. You know, getting the feedback once you tell the why you really do get that deep impression with the emotion. I realize saying that I’m just I’m going on a tear.

Tina: Do you want me to keep with this example? Yeah. but feel free to stop and ask questions, because this is my favorite topic. I could talk about this all day.

Mark: I had I had no idea.

Tina: How long is the show for? Days. I don’t know yet. I want you to be at a ten. Just say I need usually for just, you know, to bring it down. so let’s say it. It once you’re in that dialog and you’re selling wine and telling them what the thing is, the next step is to say, okay, so so what can I do about this?

Tina: Don’t you come up with a solution because that’s like giving a teenager telling a, you know, teenager to do their homework, right? You can’t let them come up with the solution. So what do you think they can do? Well, honestly, I’d be going out late at night and that’s why I’m not going to. Well, I well, you’d be hard pressed to get that answer from someone, right.

Tina: But so, honestly, I just, I don’t know, I haven’t been really feeling well, and I’ve been running late. What are. The thing is, now’s your chance to leap and ask me questions and maybe coach and maybe write and problem solve together. And once you do, once it’s decided upon. Okay, so are you going to try that now?

Tina: Kelly? Go on 40. I set the alarm 15 minutes earlier. All right. Great. And again, this is this is for your benefit. Because if we keep doing this, you know what the repercussions will be when you agree. And then they would agree. And that is so then, you know it’s almost like Smart goals specific measurable actionable that kind of thing.

Tina: But you agree and then you don’t not check in for months. You check in within a day depending on the scenario, even checking within two days, three days. And it’s just I made that sound like it’s so easy. Oh, that’s that’s all it is. How how hard to. It’s terribly hard because it’s people. Yeah. And it’s not just.

Tina: Okay. Thanks, boss. You’re the best. Have a nice day. There is that when you agree? There’s. There’s a lot of time. There’s a push back.

Victoria: Yes.

Tina: Yes. Yeah. What’s.

Mark: So that’s actually what I was thinking because. And I’m actually going to my son who I always have these conversations with. But it’s kind of the same thing. Right. And what happens with him and a couple of employees as well as they get instantly defensive. I don’t know what you’re talking about. I yeah, I think you’re right. Where are you coming up with this?

Mark: What’s happening? So how do you deal with that? Where it’s just instant deflection and and defensiveness and feeling attacked by you. So how do you kind of temper that?

Tina: Yeah, that is a fabulous question. And that’s the that’s the question of the day, isn’t it. Right. And with children now that 11 year old daughter and I will tell you as a parent, I’m not I’m not. Well, it is because it’s all emotion and I am emotionally attached to her outcome. So it is is painfully challenging with children.

Tina: This is really hard. I don’t use the word why. Why did you do that? We as parents deflect to that word and honestly, most of the time they don’t know. And all that does, especially with your kids and all that does is elevate the negative emotion is how can I help you with that? So we have to shift our language and our power of raising right when it comes to children.

Tina: But in general, the, the, the most of the time the emotion comes with a we’re forgetting the why for so for if we’re focusing on, adults and a performance environment, our work environment, and we stop and say, so help me understand where this is coming from or whatever language you’re using, it can deflect some of the emotion.

Tina: If we tell them that we’re in their court and we’re not asking them to be accusatory, we’re asking them because we’re trying to understand. I will tell you, nine times out of ten that works now, it’s never going to work all the time because people have the same, and it’s called embarrassment. And most of the time, I’m not going to say a lot of the time people get upset because they know it themselves.

Tina: They know. And so what do we do? We go, we go like this, and we we I’m putting my fists up in the air, whether way, you know, just in we gets offensive, right? If you do that game where you walk up to somebody and put your hands up in the air by your face and they put their hands up and put them together and you push, what do they do?

Tina: They push back. And getting feedback is perceived as a push is perceived as a negative. So people get defensive right away. The worst thing you can do is tell that person to not feel that way. You shouldn’t feel like way of right. You have to validate and acknowledge, I understand, I completely understand why you’re coming this way. You know, I would feel that way if I was in your position as well, or whatever you’re acknowledging it and validation languages and say, okay, and then let them calm down.

Tina: So when when adults saw a tantrum, which looks different than a child’s tantrum but is exact, sometimes they let Peter out, let it be, and children too. They get embarrassed and they realize it most of the time. They’re they’re they realize it on their own. Watch. a quick sidebar. Working with automotive dealerships for so many years, a lot of times that tantrum comes from a customer who was on the showroom floor or whatever, and they’re very angry.

Tina: The first thing you do is you take them into a separate room, just let them and let it go and let the fire off until they stop and take the breath. it was they take their breath and you get to go, okay, so how can we work on this together? It’s this. It really does work itself out if you remain calm.

Tina: And here’s a piece of advice. It has nothing to do with you. It has nothing zero to do with you. They’re screaming and yelling and complaining. Maybe it’s you, but it’s not about you. And if we can just again, I did it for so many years. The the first time I ever gave performance feedback when I was on the show, but I was small and actually at the beginning of 2001 and I had my first screamer, I worked with her for hours because I was internalizing it.

Tina: I was trying to fix her. I was trying to take her monkey off her back and put it on my own shoulders and carry it around for her. again. Yeah. Sales. And I learned a little hard way. It’s not about me. And I get now feedback sessions take ten minutes because it’s it’s I say it, but it’s business like it’s audible.

Tina: Should they feel heard and respected. And there’s a plan that they have. So Mark, not a very specific right question, but it’s all about your approach, your emotional state, the phraseology that you use and your intention. And that can help diffuse the situation.

Victoria: So if you are talking to a an employee, like some of the examples you gave at the beginning were pretty simplistic. You’re late, you know, that sort of thing. But what if you’re getting into literally how somebody does their job and there’s a you’re trying to balance that delegation and letting them go versus feedback versus taking it back and all that stuff.

Tina: Yeah. That is that’s a that’s way more challenging, isn’t it? Because it’s not tangible. Right. And especially in environments where I and I work with consultants and coaches and facilitators for whom I, it’s not like, go make this pen, and then I’m going to judge your work and how you made the pen write. It’s about how other people shifted on their behalf.

Tina: And it’s about, did the clients hear what you said? So it does. It takes longer, quite frankly. And it’s it’s much more about back on their shoulders. And this brings me all the way back to where I started the conversation, where I said, use the word. I. Well, this is this is a rough one because and I’ll give an example, I got some, but I did receive some feedback from a client at one of my consultants was not meeting expectations.

Tina: Now I am not in the process at all. I’m not seeing it. I am not here and there’s a lot of coaching that’s going on here that is a completely private relationship. No one can be as part of that. Right. So that I had to first do my due diligence for the client to really understand what he meant.

Tina: And then I had to go back to my coach and, in this case and say, so I’ve been getting some feedback. Who said it immediately and say, and I have set the expectations so you understand the paradigm in which you work. I have also seen that there has been some shifts in this, so you have to advocate that that element when possible.

Tina: And then that’s when I stop and say, so tell me what’s going on for you. and I’ll be honest, all the mirror of myself. I waited too long for that. That was actually a failure on my part. I should have been checking in with the consultant. but I keep going back and coaching. Consulting because we actually call them consultants.

Tina: We have a hybrid,

Victoria: That just keeps things clear, right?

Tina: Right. So forgive me for that. So my consultant in this point, I went to him and I said, so help me understand what’s going on here because we’ve gotten some constructive feedback. First I want to hear from you. And there was some defensiveness there. He’s mature. So we handle that. That was an open conversation, for which I then had to go give feedback back to the client, because there was a big gap in expectation.

Tina: So, maybe that wasn’t the best example because honestly, I had to give feedback to myself. I didn’t I didn’t get in front of that, early enough, I had been checking in with a coach, sheltered more frequently. I would have known that there was that gap on my own, if that makes any sense. So B in in the cases where there’s not as tangible, that’s where in my experience, the employee gets way more emotional.

Tina: Well prove it. Let me see. Let let me, let me hear it. And so that’s where you have to define, action items over the next days and weeks. Okay. So to help me understand what this has happened, okay. This is what’s happening, right? So how do you think we can ensure that the client is feeling heard, or is the business is shifting and changing?

Tina: Well, I guess I can check in with the client more, I guess. Okay, let’s try it. So let’s let’s work on that together. How can we communicate that to the client? The key here is to put it back on that person to create the new targets for action. You can then go back and measure. yeah. This takes work.

Tina: And this is where we as leaders, we see, oh my God, who is time this. I have so much of so many other things that we do. We absolutely do. And if we want to do it right, we have to prioritize. And I again, I’ll put the mirror to my face. I, I got behind that example because I was doing other things.

Tina: right. I was managing other things that I thought is important. Oh, let’s write the book. I did great. That’s all right. So I was I was not focusing on creating an environment where my people could thrive, in this case, that one person thrive. So does that answer that? Yeah. Extra elements in there.

Mark: Think Tina. No, it’s that’s that’s really good stuff. I actually I had a question where as we’re approaching the end of the show here, but I got to squeeze this in here. I to if are you okay with curveballs I love curveballs. I want to throw you a curveball because, everything’s been about, addressing and giving feedback on on an employee that’s maybe not really performing, but what about the the the rock star?

Mark: You want to give them feedback as well. So are there any pitfalls or tips to to giving too much positive feedback? So I don’t speak to the positive side of it, because I could see a situation where somebody that’s always on the pedestal is going to start getting arrogant and cocky and maybe something else. So if you can speak to that side of it a little bit.

Tina: That is, that’s not a curveball. That’s brilliant. That question. I love that question. And speaking of.

Victoria: Going to one’s head, ha ha ha.

Tina: I watching you right now. The first of all, don’t forget your rock stars. Yeah, they need feedback as well. And it’s okay if it’s if it’s positive feedback. Hey, Jerry. Got a second. So how do you think that went? Well, I think it was okay. And I think, you know, I think he was fantastic. Here’s what I think you did.

Tina: Well that’s how it we out what they did well. So they keep doing the thing well with details. That’s that’s amazing. And and again maybe maybe we’re doing maybe this conversation to remind me I’m making a note to call. See you later. Are awesome. Right. And just make sure that he knows he’s doing a great job. It’s. Yes.

Tina: There can be such a thing is too much. But I’ve never come across an example where that has ever existed because, if if it’s too much to the person, might go, might say, you know, why are you doing it? But but I guess ask yourself, why are you giving all this positive feedback on a daily basis?

Tina: Are you trying? Are you kissing ass? She’s. What language are you trying to, you know, are you? Do you want something from this person? Because it it depends on the situation. I’ll give you an example. If in my world, if, one of my instructors taught a course two days in a row, no problem. At the end of you shave.

Tina: Okay, for a second. Well done. You. That’s. No. Why not? Why not do that if it’s a typical Monday and they just showed up and, you know, sent me the paperwork signed. Hey, what can I get you? You know, and so I think, as my father used to say, use your head. Don’t be stupid and follow your gut with that.

Tina: and if you’re doing it for the right reasons, and then really, there’s nothing but critical element. And why I love that question is because we forget them, so don’t forget them. Gives it in the moment also. But it’s okay if a month later you say, I forgot, I want to do more, I just want you to know that was really good.

Tina: Here’s what she did about it. There’s nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with.

Mark: That. That’s fantastic. Tina, I gotta tell you, it’s it’s always comes through. It comes through in the conversation when we have those guests that are just so passionate about their their topic and their discipline and what they, what they’re it’s just it’s very obvious with you. So it’s clear that if I don’t step in here, we’re going to talk for 4 or 5 hours.

Mark: so this has been great, but I think it’s time that we look inside the scary place that is Tina’s head. And we do the lightning round. You sure you want.

Tina: To go here? All right. Okay. Let’s go.

Mark: And now, here’s a remodelers advantage. Lightning round.

Tina: It’s a track.

Mark: All right, we’re going to put 60s on the clock. Here we go. What is your favorite business book and why?

Tina: The habit of change. Because it taught me things that I had not considered before.

Mark: If you weren’t the VP of the retail performance company, what do you think you’d be doing?

Tina: I would be a prima ballerina for sure. Absolutely. For sure. Or I would be teaching the art of facilitation all day and twice on Sunday. Oh.

Mark: What do you not very good at?

Tina: besides, besides keeping my podcast short, I am not very good at doing my taxes are all things computer technology related. I am not the guy who calls unless you want the answer. Be control. Also, we.

Mark: Your room, your desk or your car. Which would you clean first?

Tina: My desk.

Mark: Do you sing in the shower?

Tina: No.

Mark: That sounds like a lie. Name something you refuse to share?

Tina: That’s a problem, because I do. I share everything I would say my personal laptop with my daughter. Never, ever. You are not touching it. Thank you.

Mark: Have you ever been told you look like someone famous?

Tina: yes.

Mark: Who?

Tina: the, Tierney magazine, Marilyn Tierney, Meghan Tierney, what’s her name? She played a doctor.

Mark: Oh, Megan Tiernan.

Victoria: Tiernan.

Tina: That’s it. Yes, ma’am. I’m Rachael Ray. That’s the other one.

Tina: That’s funny.

Victoria: So, hey, this has been great, and we’ve really enjoyed it. But before I let you go, I want you to share with our listening audience your five words of wisdom and why they resonate with you.

Tina: It is prescription without diagnosis is malpractice. And my dear departed, mentor Ron Chapman said that to me so many years ago when I was coming up in this industry of working with, you know, employee engagement and working with people training, learning and development, and I, as you can tell in fast, I am a ready, fire, aim human.

Tina: he was the, you know, the the ducks under, you know, feet under the water, kind of a human and taught me very quickly, Tina, take us up, ask the right questions, listen hard and then give a solution, and I will. That was the best advice you ever got.

Victoria: And you know what? That is absolutely perfect for our listening audience as well. So thank you so much for being here. We very much appreciate it. Now if anybody wanted to learn more about you, where would they go.

Tina: To our PC america.com and they can get in touch with me directly, or any one of the amazing humans I surround myself with any day.

Victoria: Okay, great. I think we put that in the show notes. Thank you so much for being here. We appreciate it.

Mark: Thanks.

Tina: Thank you so much. This was so much fun.

Victoria: Well, Mark, I got to tell you, Tito is a woman after my own heart.

Mark: Oh, how do you mean?

Victoria: Lively, energetic, passionate. All those great qualities.

Mark: I thought you meant nonstop talking. Go.

Victoria: Oh, aren’t we funny, too? Yeah.

Mark: No. It’s fantastic. It’s. That’s what I’m saying. It was so good. It’s. It really does. When when someone is so passionate about their stuff, it just. It comes through. It uses out of every, every orifice, you know, every pore. It’s just like you just can’t stop talking about it. And it’s great. It’s you just, you know, when someone’s passionate about something, she surely, surely is passionate about this topic.

Victoria: You know, there are two things she said that really resonated with me. One is to talk about I noticed or I saw that it’s like, no, I you know, we never did get a chance to ask her, what if you didn’t see it? What if it what if it is second hand? But we’ll get to that in another podcast.

Victoria: And the other thing, well.

Mark: You know, actually if I could jump on that, I think she was saying at least the way I took it and this could be wrong. And if I am Tina, call me out after you hear this episode. But even if it is something you heard secondhand, you still say you take the onus and say, I noticed or I’m feeling because you don’t want it to be something that’s deflected, right?

Victoria: But what if you’re not there? What if somebody comes up to you and it’s like, this was horrible, and you hear from three different people, somebody did something in a way that was not reflective of your company’s culture.

Mark: Yeah. That’s true.

Victoria: You know, then you’re like, but then again, another podcast.

Mark: So the second one.

Victoria: The second one was to always say why and say it.

Mark: What is the reason? Yeah, here’s why I’m bringing this up.

Victoria: And the concept that you could be fabulous. You know, I think you really are have a lot to offer here. And there’s just a couple things getting in your way. So let’s talk about it. You know, that sort of.

Mark: Well, you know, it’s interesting. There’s two things a giving a why was one point she made, but another point that she said was never ask the person why.

Victoria: Right.

Mark: Don’t say why did you do something. So give them a why was one point. But never ask why. Why would you do that right? Why would you ever this so yeah a little fine line there. But two very important points. And it’s true. I do it with my eye. Admittedly I’ve done it with Jake on multiple occasions. My son, it’s like, why would you think that’s a good idea?

Mark: Yeah. Why would you do that for yourself? I can’t hear myself. Why would you ever.

Victoria: Make that choice?

Mark: Why would you do that? I say it almost daily.

Victoria: So I guess maybe that.

Mark: I shouldn’t be doing that. Yeah. No, that was great. I had a lot of fun, and I got a lot. The thing is, if you don’t, if you don’t shut someone down, that’s that passionate, it’s going to be a five hour episode. Yeah.

Victoria: Which would be a great episode, but.

Mark: It would be, you know, we could do a five parter.

Victoria: There you.

Mark: Go. Actually, they’re 30 minutes, so they’d have to be a ten parter.

Victoria: Yeah, I’d have, I guess a little lengthy.

Mark: Yeah, a little bit. But we want to thank Tina for being here. It was really, really great. And we want to thank you for listening week in and week out. I am Mark Harari.

Victoria: And I’m Victoria Downing. See you next week.