Mark: Today on PowerTips unscripted. We talked to Jef Forward, head coach of Forward Design Build Remodel in Ann Arbor, Michigan. When considering your teammates that specifically on board and manage your clients, training your people and providing consistent coaching is a huge component of success. One of the most effective ways to train your people is a ride along or shadowing technique.

Mark: However, it can be a drain on resources. Take a long time and the learning is in the moment. Well, Jef has found a better way and we’ll hear all about it in just a minute.

Victoria: Hi, I’m Victoria Downing and welcome to PowerTips Unscripted, where we talk about tips, tactics and techniques to help you build a strong, profitable remodeling company. And I’m here with my co-host, Mark Harari.

Mark: Well, hello.

Victoria: There. Hi there. How are you?

Mark: I’m pretty good.

Victoria: One of our favorite repeat guests, I think this is a three peat. Sounds right for Jef forward, which are very cool to have. Yeah, and a pretty neat topic to boot.

Mark: It’s very neat. Yeah, it’s all about. Well, I kind of did a teaser, right? Really? Well, I guess the title gives it away, but.

Victoria: Yeah, I guess it does.

Mark: It’s going to be. It’s going to be very exciting.

Victoria: Yeah. So, you know, virtual ride along. So that’s very cool. So let’s dive in. Jef Forward has been a facilitator for remodelers advantage roundtables for numerous years and has been a member of our roundtables Family for even longer. He’s known as a visionary and an idea guy and ahead of the curve and most things tech. So welcome aboard, Jef.

Jef: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Victoria: My fellow Michigander here.

Jef: Yes. I hope I can fill those shoes.

Victoria: So is it a nice weather in Michigan? You know, we always hear about the changes so fast.

Jef: The last week has been fantastic. Has been eighties and nineties. So low nineties, mid eighties. It’s no rain. But we need rain. But it’s been great.

Victoria: Good, good. Well so we’re happy to have you here from Ann Arbor, Michigan. And let’s dive into this virtual ride along school. Tell us about it, Jef. How did you get into this?

Jef: So as we built our sales team over the years and with the idea of continued growth, it became kind of clear to me that doing the traditional ride alongs as a training method was really going to eat into my time. And it just, I think maybe slow down the growth curve and more specifically slow down the learning curve.

Jef: So that’s what really started me to look into these options, specifically utilizing the benefits of artificial intelligence.

Victoria: All right, Cool beans. That’s like a hot topic all over the place right now, right? Me? Yes. Popping up everywhere. Every time I turn around, there’s more A.I. stuff now. So are you talking about specific people? Specific people filling specific roles within the company or all employees or how did you get started with this type of training and then make the switch to virtual?

Jef: So. Well, for sales training, the first thing that we did was similar training and going to in-person training with a local Sandler trainer trainer, which was fantastic. There was a ton of information out of it. And one of the things they give you as a training tool, a learning tool is recordings to listen to. So that was our first kind of introduction into this idea of audio learning.

Jef: And from there, I started to as I was looking for this artificial intelligence system, this was about a year and a half ago that we started and from there I just didn’t look back. It saved me so much time and our team really adapted to it quickly. And from there we would use it with our sales team, but we also use it with our design team and our project managers.

Jef: All of the key roles that service our clients are using this.

Victoria: So you had always been doing a type of onboarding with your employees in those areas, but they were literally you literally rode along with them.

Jef: Yes. So I see onboarding and training is two different thing. Onboarding is when we have a new we hire a new employee and onto the team and that teammate goes through, say, two months of specific exercises that we have set up within our onboarding passport system. And then we’re using the artificial intelligence for the continued training of those three roles.

Jef: But because of all the information we have from this, we’re now starting to incorporate it into the training or I’m sorry, into the onboarding to set a baseline of our knowledge for them to know before they get in front of clients.

Victoria: Okay. So I know that you had been using a variety of different tools that would record meetings and allow you to search topics and so on that would spit out text, right?

Jef: Correct. Yes. We used Otter for a long time and I still use it in terms of my personal productivity workflow as I’ve transitioned into more digital approaches with that. But that’s that’s a whole nother topic.

Victoria: Right, Right. So now you’re using AI. Tell me specifically how you’re using it for this training.

Jef: So let me look before I talk about how we use it. Let me get a better definition of what it is. So it is a it’s a sales conversion intelligence app, and we are specifically using rail of voice dot com. And what it does is it records voice, voice in-person meetings between a prospect or two people, typically a prospect and our salesperson.

Jef: And it also records virtual meetings that happen online through either Google Meet or or Zoom and it records these and it uses an artificial intelligence section within it to collect and sort the data of the conversation. And it sorts it as a route as it relates to our stated goals and sales preferences. And it provides us insight for improving the conversion performance.

Victoria: Okay. So the whole thing close more sales, figure out how to train people to do better throughout the whole process.

Jef: Correct? Yes. That’s that’s really what it is. And but why we use that gets into there’s three main categories for me. Number one, it benefits our clients. Number two, it improves our training. And number three, it improves the sales conversion performance. When I first started this, that was my number one piece. But it’s it’s my thinking has shifted over time.

Jef: I would rate it in terms of the priority clients, our team and then improving sales.

Victoria: Really? Wow. Well, so tell me about what are the benefits to the client.

Jef: So the benefit to the client is just a general theme I have with thinking about technology. I like to think about technology in ways that help our team, help our clients. How can we? I really believe happy, happy teammates, a happy employee equals a happy client, that that’s just the path to make happy clients. That’s my personal philosophy that I like to follow when I make decisions.

Jef: So but it it benefits the clients specifically because they get our meeting notes back that are summarized that have follow up notes. It’s it’s very clear what what was happening. And it saves our team a ton of time doing that. Secondly, it improves our training and this feeds back into benefiting our clients. But in truth, in premiums, our training, because we can act on it very quickly and because of the summary and what artificial intelligence does with it.

Jef: According to the trackers that we’ve got set up, we can really pinpoint where a certain person can improve on conversational topics or objections or getting to next steps. And and that really, again, the client feels that the conversations are a lot more effective. And then it’s just improving our sales performance on our conversion rate. But it really made me start to prioritize what’s our most important conversion rate?

Jef: And is it, you know, prospects to design or is it designed to build client? And for me, over time, this has grown to that our conversion rate to from design to construction contract construction agreement is the best or the most important conversion rate. And as we’ve looked at this, I might be jumping ahead with this a little bit, but our sales conversion from design and I’m sorry, our sales conversion from prospect to design contract has actually gone down.

Jef: But the clients that we have brought in to design our conversion rate into construction contract is at 100%. Over the last four months, it’s just been through the roof and we’ve typically averaged between 80 and 85%. So we’re spending all of our design time on clients that are really committed to our process and moving ahead with us. And that’s been the biggest benefit for us to date.

Jef: And it’s it’s been a surprise seeing that that was not what I thought I was going to get out of it, but I’m very happy with that result.

Victoria: Why do you think that has happened with this process? I mean, you talked about the benefits to the client, and I can see a definite benefit in providing them with thorough notes and next steps because there’s no miscommunications, which is the cause of so many issues in remodeling companies. Right?

Jef: Correct.

Victoria: So so how is that all tying into improving that that that ratio so much?

Jef: So this goes down to we’re building trust with the client. We’re also putting ourselves in the position of being the trusted advisor. And because part of our the training that we’re giving our client, our I’m sorry, the training that we’re giving our team to help clients make decisions has been that has been the real game changer.

Jef: And they’re walking out with decisions in a meeting versus waiting on decisions. And people are just seeing a clear path away. And that’s because this tool is helping us to be better communicators. That that’s really the core purpose of this. It’s helping everyone on the team be a better communicator in their specific lane of communication.

Victoria: Now, have you seen Jef?

Mark: You said the prospect design is what has gone down conversion, correct. And design to construction has increased. So you’re you’re being more efficient. What would you attribute the decline to?

Jef: Well, a little bit of that decline is we’re comparing it to 2022. Okay. In terms of when we look at the number of people we talk to and the number of design contracts. So 2022 was there was a lot of, you know, design a design contract and they just want to get in line to get started. Right. We’re now that has slowed down and that is just, you know, on a fact of the economy.

Jef: But we’re we’re still we’re still getting a lot of calls, but we’re really able to filter down to who gets to work with us because that’s the mentality that we have to have.

Mark: So you’re more efficient?

Jef: Yes, we’re more efficient.

Victoria: So in addition to being more efficient in the conversion rate, are what’s happened to the span of time, the duration of the sales process, Has that shrunk as well?

Jef: No, it hasn’t. So people still need time to make their decision, so to speak. And I do think there is, because of the economy, they’re willing to take that time and really hire the right person. But we’ve this tool has allowed us to kind of look into that process. And so we have actually evolved our sales process. So we have more touches with them in it in a two step or possibly three step approach.

Jef: So the time from initial phone call to actually signing a design agreement is longer than than it was before, but also we’re typically the first people to copy that. Typically, we are always the first people to call back there in terms of the competition that that we typically are competing with. There’s only one other company in town that I think is responding as quickly as we are.

Victoria: Wow. Okay. That’s cool. That really isn’t doesn’t have to do with this particular process except perhaps the training that you put into it and the focus on it. But so you talked a little bit about the trackers that you put into the system.

Jef: Right. So the this goes down into helping artificial intelligence start the data from the phone call. So if you can imagine our tracker points, you can think of like the similar submarine with, you know, digging into pain points, understanding their decision clock. These are things that we track. We have got a couple other trackers. I think we’ve got nine total that these are opportunities that for training.

Jef: And along with these trackers, we’ve got a scorecard that produces a result of automatic of how the the salesperson or the person conducting really the meeting handled the scenarios. So and from there, we that’s our ability to go in and pinpoint and and train up.

Victoria: So through these nine trackers, you’re able to understand what the salesperson is doing, where they’re strongest and where they are weak.

Jef: Correct? Yes. And the trackers have to do with our specific points that they want to talk about, and we can see where they need improvement on, for example, setting up an upfront contract or a parallel. That is something that is one of the more difficult things to train on. And Sander, you know, getting people comfortable with being that direct and a in a short, concise way.

Jef: So that’s something that we can see and and train on. There’s another element that they do, and it’s called call statistics or speaking statistics. So if I get into the idea that somebody could be a very impatient person, like they’re interrupting the person they’re talking with, and so they track that and they they call it patient. And that also gets into is an understanding if our salesperson or a designer or a project manager, if they’re really listening, you know, or if they’re just waiting to talk.

Jef: And so those are things that we can can train through.

Mark: So, Jef, just to clarify something real quick, because you’re talking about the the phone call and such. I guess it’s a two part question. Are your salespeople doing this on the phone and how what’s the percentage versus face to face? And can you do this face to face? How’s it recording face to face?

Jef: Yes. So one of the advantages of Rella is that it was designed from the phone app out, so it will record from your phone, like on a qualifying call. It will record that and it does it through our CRM system. And then in a face to face meeting that they just have to I’m sorry, the face to face meeting they have in there, their Google calendar.

Jef: And when they show up for the meeting, the app automatically pops up and they just have to press record. Okay? They don’t. They don’t have to remember. It’s just it’s there. The phone vibrates and then they ask permission and they record it.

Victoria: Permission is denied.

Jef: And we say, okay. And and then we go back to, you know, we’re going to go back to handwriting notes. So when we’re speaking, just give me a little time. Just to prep you for that. But when we ask like we’ve only had one or two people say, you know, no, thank you. And and that’s their personal choice.

Jef: But we always preface it with the the idea that this will benefit them. This will allow me to take notes with without taking notes. And I can listen better and ask better questions and I can share the copy with you if you would like it.

Mark: So how many how many salespeople do you have?

Jef: Currently, we have three right now.

Mark: Okay. And you’re still selling as well?

Jef: No, I’m not a sales manager.

Mark: Gotcha.

Victoria: Yeah. That was one of the last roles you got out of, wasn’t it?

Jef: Yes. Yes, it was. And I’m looking to replace myself as a sales manager as well. So this tool is going to help me do that and train train up the next person to, you know, be the sales manager.

Victoria: Awesome. So how else does the recording or just I categorize this occurrence. We talked about interruptions. We talked about did they do in the pelo? What are some other things that other ways that categorizes.

Jef: So let’s I just open it up so I’m looking at it right now. So this is in the interactivity and this is basic good conversation skills. So we’ve got six, we’ve got talk ratio in terms of how much one person is talking and the other we’ve got longest monologue and the longest, longest customer monologue. And and with this, it gives us some ranges that you want to be and then it gets into interactivity, which is that that’s kind of the back and forth and then it gets into patience and and talk speed.

Jef: So one of the things that we do train on is mirroring. And if you are working with somebody who is a fast talker, you better pick up the pace. But if you’re working with somebody who is talks at a slower rate, you need to try to match that.

Victoria: Okay, that’s really interesting. Can you what would be a good ratio for for the talk ratio? What’s a good mix there?

Jef: So if I just the general guideline here is somewhere in the, you know, 45 to 55% range. And if you’re over that and you get into the 70% range, you’re you’re telling versus versus selling, it’s just sorry that sounded so corny, but it really is if you can get your your prospect talking more than you might see, you’ve got a better chance of of them asking more questions and you know having them feel the importance of you know, of their word.

Mark: Right. Does it have a corny meter also.

Jef: Nine out of ten.

Victoria: I know you talked about you have built in more touches in that one or two or three still sales process. What do you mean by that?

Jef: So this this isn’t necessarily it doesn’t have anything to do with with the software, but just the idea right now with with people taking their time, with making decisions and the more touches they get from us, the more likely they are to work with us. So instead of a one presentation approach, we have a two presentation approach. And that’s all after the all after the qualifying call.

Jef: And we’ve also increased our our touches, our nonverbal touches between meetings as well, where we’re sending them specific videos and or PDFs or just straight text emails about information that we felt they would appreciate to help them make a decision. And we’re building that library still between video PDF and straight text messages because people like to consume information in such a different way.

Victoria: Are you seeing any? I know it’s a little slightly off topic. I’ll bring it back in a second, but are you seeing any particular format getting higher open rates or higher interaction with the client.

Jef: By text messaging? Really? Yes. It’s yeah, it’s text messaging has been we’re it’s always a faster piece. For example, it’s just a part of our process. Now, when we’re setting up a phone call, we use a text message to introduce ourselves so they know so they can recognize the number when it comes in.

Victoria: that’s a great idea. That’s a great idea. Now, you also one of the things I really want to learn about this is how long did it take you and your team to learn how to use this and really get as much value as possible out of it?

Jef: That is a excuse me, a good question and a challenging question to ask because I consume this stuff pretty quickly and I jump in. So and I really have to practice patience for onboarding it. So it took the first our first round, we use a different software called Gone IO, which was great, a lot of benefits, but it really wasn’t strong with a phone app.

Jef: So when we switched to this, it took my sales team, but between the three of them, but between a month and two and a half months to really get adapted to it and embrace it.

Mark: And again, this is called Rella.

Jef: Rella.

Mark: Voice over voice And how long have you been using it?

Jef: So we switched platforms from Gone to LA in January of this year.

Mark: Okay. All right. So that’s pretty short stint and you’re obviously seeing some big returns on that.

Jef: Yes. But you have to remember, we were using gone for a year and they were able to. So one of the things is we still own all of the information. So we were able to import all of that into this system. So the same trackers.

Mark: So it had a bigger learning database.

Jef: Correct.

Jef: Yes, it did. And the other thing that we did is in January, we introduced it to the designers and we introduced it to the project managers. The adoption from the project managers is taking a little longer. But where, you know, we’re making progress with it. And it’s it’s been really interesting to me because some of the project managers that I thought were really strong with client meetings are not as strong as they thought.

Jef: And some of the folks that I thought needed the most training are really leaders of the pack right now. And also because this is a team focused piece and we can build a library of best practices so a project manager can go in and listen to these, like the best practices is focused on our our key meeting approach so they can go in and they can listen to how this particular project manager handled this situation.

Jef: And they’re set up as snippets and it’s where we haven’t seen the full effect of that, but it’s in place and I’m really excited about it. So and this is where when we hire our next project manager down the line, this is this information will be available in the onboarding process to set up that baseline information.

Victoria: So who’s doing the the gathering of the snippets and all that? I mean, somebody has got to be doing all this.

Jef: Yeah, that’s so a I does it. It will it will show me the highlights and then I decide what goes in and clarifying any message points, talking points with it. So the goal, the challenge here for me is consistency, which is my kryptonite because I’m a low s on risk assessments. So I do have people helping me with that and the general manager and the production manager, they need to listen to one call per week and that’s that’s the goal for that.

Jef: And then I’m trying to listen to one call per month.

Victoria: Okay. Wow. So you’re really not listening to all that terribly many anymore?

Jef: No, I’m not. And but the general manager is is doing that. And we’re trying to train that the sales manager into her as well. So but the summaries I get, I review the summaries and they’re they’re very effective. Great. So I’m I’m way more in charge of our sales process now than I ever was. Yeah.

Mark: Really? Could you talk a little bit about if how you’re using this information with regard to the sales calls that close and the ones that don’t? Is there any information garnered from comparing the two of.

Jef: Yes, we. Well, in terms of, you know, just this typical sales statistic tracking of who we are competing with, the type of client and the type of project, but we on the ones we lose, we do look at could have they been won and what was wrong with it. So we do autopsies on certain certain prospects that we we really felt we were that fit and we didn’t get.

Mark: And I’m just I’m just wondering if in in the reporting that it’s providing you if there’s if you started to been able to kind of see some trends and. Okay, the ones that lose, we’re having these scores and these components versus the ones we win and that type of thing. Is that something that could or could not gravitate to the top?

Jef: Yes, it could. Absolutely. Okay. We have a lot of flexibility with how we sort the information to.

Victoria: You know, I would think that one of the more valuable parts of this would be the project managers using it at their client meetings. That seems like it’s huge.

Jef: Yes, it is. So the with regards to our project managers and getting them on board with with doing this, you know, their concern was kind of initially that Big Brother approach. Sure. But we talked about the training aspect of it with them basically managing the meeting better, or you could think of it as that they’re developing better public speaking skills.

Victoria: Right.

Jef: How to pause, how to when to emphasize, you know, how to run a meeting versus letting a meeting just kind of meander all over the place, which does still happen. But the the idea is we’re trying to work out of that. And then it also gets us into topic training. So, for example, if if there’s a conflict or managing an issue, because we all know issues come up and giving them language on how to handle that.

Jef: And then the last the last thing which we used Otter for which we’re now using it for, is task management. So we can they can use keywords and whatever keywords that are flexible or that are comfortable with them or like, I’m going to add that to the list or this is an action item and it puts it into a summary.

Jef: So. Wow. That, you know, we’re able to just copy and paste that into our project management system.

Victoria: Really?

Jef: Yes.

Victoria: So, so dang.

Jef: It’s just it’s been it’s been a game changer for us. Yes.

Victoria: That’s awesome. And I bet there’s like a tiny tie. Any fraction of the people listening to us that have anywhere near this system put in place so far?

Jef: I well, it’s easier than I think people think. And I do think there is there’s a lot of really tech savvy folks out there that are are doing something like this. I mean, if there’s not, you know, anyone wants to ask any questions.

Victoria: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Jef. This has been awesome.

Mark: Well, great. Well, I’m not going to let him off the hook without you. Got to get to the lightning round. All right. Nice try.

Victoria: You know, we should see what sort of stats. How fast do our lightning round people really get through the questions, right?

Mark: Yeah, we could do that. All right, let’s do it. Ready? Ready there, Jef.

Jef: I’m going to give it a shot. Yes.

Mark: And now here’s a reminders advantage. Lightning round.

Jef: It’s a trap.

Mark: All right, let’s put 60 seconds on the clock. What is your favorite business book and why?

Jef: That I’ve read so many, but I’m going to go there to lead with Brené Brown. That’s really a foundational book for me.

Mark: If you weren’t a remodeler, what do you think you’d be doing?

Jef: I would. You know, I’ve talked about this a lot, actually. I would be a chef because it’s creative and you get immediate results.

Mark: So what are you not very good at?

Jef: Well, consistency. Cleaning my desk, I’ll say that.

Mark: it’s ugly. You’re in your desk or your car. Which would you clean first?

Jef: Right now it’s my car. But again, I’m not very consistent. We put our.

Mark: Foot on both socks. Then your shoes or socks? Shoes. Socks. Shoe.

Jef: Again, it varies, but I typically go socks, shoes, socks, shoe. And I know Archie Bunker does not like that strategy.

Mark: What do you think’s the greatest invention ever?

Jef: you know, I’m going to stick with an invention right now. I’m just going to say the electric car. I’m really enjoying that.

Mark: In one word, describe your high school self and slow. That actually fit really well right there.

Victoria: Yes, it’s perfect. babe, this has been great, Jef. And as always, we love having you on. And we love having you be one of our presenters at our building, An Effective Design Process masterclass that we’re planning again coming up, I think, in a couple of months. So appreciate that all your, all the stuff you bring to facilitation.

Victoria: Our people love you. But before I let you go, I want you to share with our listening audience here five words of wisdom and why they resonate with you.

Jef: So this has stuck with me for years, and I’m sure I said it on the other podcast as well. But it’s my words of wisdom that I tell myself and that it’s not about you dummy. I just I my upbringing created some and a wonderful upbringing, but I can be very selfish at times and so that was in learning how to delegate, learning how to build a team.

Jef: I really had to take myself out of that equation. And that put other people’s needs before my needs within the business. So that really helped me, I guess, build a better team and keep them here as well.

Victoria: Great. Good deal. Thank you so much for that. That was wonderful.

Mark: That’s great. Jef, did you by any chance, did you attend a webinar we had for members?

Jef: No, I did not. I missed that.

Mark: Yeah, we’re doing an encore tomorrow in the members only webinars. So all our members out there listening, you got the webinar coming up. Well, when this when this is published, actually it’ll be late, but you know, it’ll be available in your member portal. You’ll be able to get the recording.

Jef: I’ll Get to it.

Victoria: All right. Thank you so much. And I look forward to seeing you someday soon.

Jef: Okay, great. Thank you.

Mark: Bye.

Jef: Thanks, Jef. Take care. Bye Bye.

Victoria: Dang. I think this is a fascinating topic.

Mark: All the stuff is fantastic.

Victoria: Yeah. And this in particular. I mean, I’m sure there are other things out there I haven’t heard of any others that do this sort of thing.

Mark: Well, this one, I think, is specifically also geared towards this industry. So, yes, there’s that added component that it’s it’s focused on remodeling engagement.

Victoria: Just think of the training that this provides to new people coming into your company.

Mark: Yeah, but I mean, that alone is the game changer, right? I mean, you’re flattening that that learning curve, right? Significantly. Yeah. So that’s that’s a wonderful thing. And it sounds like you just one of the hardest things with anything in business is you have all this information, all this data, and then it’s so much and it’s so overwhelming.

Mark: You can never get through it all, whether it’s whether it’s sales or whether it’s marketing data or what have you.

Victoria: Three even notebooks full of action items that you never look at.

Mark: Again, just having to go through it and then suss out the important stuff. That’s one of the things that all this technology is really helping with. It’s let the machines get you the bullet points, get you the important information. It’s going to make everybody so much more efficient.

Victoria: Yeah, it’s good stuff because I’m just, you know, such a leader in the tech side of things. It’s fun talking.

Mark: To. Yeah, definitely. And a.

Victoria: Cutting.

Mark: Edge. That’s an early adopter. Yeah, sure. Which is nice because then all of us around him can let him figure it out and then we can jump in. So it’s good. But we want to thank you for sharing this cool tool with us and we want to thank you for listening week in and week out.

Victoria: Mark Harari and Victoria Downing. See you next time.