Mark: Today on Power Tips Unscripted, we talk to Spencer Powell, president of Builder Funnel. You know, I get 20 emails a month from members with various marketing questions. And at the top of the list is SEO, which is particularly tough one to deal with because the SEO landscape is always changing. But Spencer has discovered some cool connections between ranking on Google, a targeted email strategy, and a paid social media strategy.

Mark: And he’s going to share his findings in just a minute.

Victoria: Hi, I’m Victoria Downing and welcome to Power Tips Unscripted where we talk about tips, tactics and techniques to help you build a strong, profitable remodeling company. And I’m here today with my co-host, Mark Harari.

Mark: Yeah.

Victoria: You are. Yeah, yeah. And I remember to introduce you sorta kinda kinda sorta. So again, I’m so glad you’re here. I had to abandon my efforts at Keeping Up years ago. So, you know, and I know that one of those really to really people complicated things is SEO.

Mark: Search engine optimization is is like witchcraft, black magic, voodoo to many, many people out there, and understandably so because it literally changes daily. Oh my gosh. I mean, it’s just nonstop. Google has probably 400 algorithm updates a year or 500, so that’s more than once a day you just can’t keep up. Best you can do is stay up with best practices and hire smart, smart people like Spencer.

Victoria: Yeah, really. So I’m really glad we had to talk about this today, because hopefully he can explain this black magic stuff in a way that I can understand it. And as well, and as well as being interesting to pro marketing people.

Mark: Yeah, I always Spencer and I agree on about 95% of everything, and that’s pretty rare with marketing people because we all have our own opinions of things. So yeah. So I’m excited to hear what Spencer has to say.

Victoria: All right. Well, let’s get going. Spencer Powell is the founder and president of Builder Funnel, a digital marketing agency that helps Remodelers improve their marketing and sales system. Builder funnel helps you generate more and leads more leads and sales, as well as putting the right technology in place to measure what’s working and what’s not, so that you can improve your efforts over time.

Victoria: And in addition, Builder Funnels and Remodelers Advantage sponsor. And he’s going to be at the summit this year. Yep, yep. Hey welcome, Spencer.

Spencer: Hey, thanks for having me.

Victoria: Oh. You bet. You know, it’s time for us to have a marketing pro on this show, I must say.

Mark: And a and a podcasting pro. He’s got the whole thing. That’s right. Builder Funnel Radio, which is a great program.

Victoria: That’s right. Y’all should check that one out as well. So all right Spencer, let’s get into this. What is SEO really?

Spencer: Yeah, that’s a great question. And I think if you asked that question five years ago and ten years ago, you might get a different answer. But the way I look at it is SEO is is a number of factors that you’re trying to do online to influence how you rent in search engines. So most people think of it as, how do I get to number one in Google?

Spencer: And then it starts getting more complex really quickly when you start thinking about topics and keywords and all the different web pages that you have, that could be ranking. But but really, at the end of the day, the goal with SEO is to grow your organic traffic. Get found more often in Google for the right type of searches.

Spencer: So people that are looking to remodel their home.

Victoria: So okay, so explain that in a little bit of a different angle. Right. So okay. So it’s all the things you’re doing to try to make your company be found more often by searches. Why is that such an important part of a marketing program these days?

Spencer: Yeah, it’s a great question. I mean, we hear SEO and you know, we go, okay, well, why should we be doing that? And really, it’s because SEO matches up with the the way people shop and buy today. So whether you’re buying something, for your home like a TV and you’re going to do research or you’re actually looking to remodel your home, you have a lot of questions and you do a lot of research.

Spencer: And that’s just the way we operate today. We’ve been trained to go to Google, to go online, to start asking questions. And so we want to be there as a part of that research process. So one example I’ll share that we’ve been doing with a lot of with a lot of remodelers is tackling the topic of cost because whether you like it or not, there are people out there searching for how much does it cost to remodel my kitchen?

Spencer: How much does it cost to remodel my bathroom in Denver? In Dallas, in location, basically. So if you’re creating content, you’re answering these questions, then you can start to get found by people doing this research. And as you can imagine, those questions are endless, right? It’s not just about cost, it’s about process, design, trends, etc. so that’s really what you’re trying to do is match your marketing strategy to the way people actually shop and buy today.

Victoria: Well, that certainly makes sense. Okay, so what are some of the factors that go into a really good SEO strategy.

Spencer: Yeah, they’re probably 200 plus factors that go into SEO. And so what we try to do is kind of rein in the beast, so to speak. And there’s certainly some components that are more influential than others. And what we found is that some of the top factors are, you know, keywords and topics. So what keywords are you including in your content, in your page title, in your URL.

Spencer: And then it starts to look at other factors. So content on the page. How helpful is it links coming into your website. So Google looks at links as kind of, a token of authority or a recommendation. If there are other websites out there linking back to you, Google says, hey, this site must be more important. Other people are linking to it.

Spencer: So we think it’s important. But then there are a lot of other things like page speed and social signals that also come into play. So, I’d be happy to send you guys a resource that has like 200 of the ranking factors that there are, and some, some SEO guru, did a bunch of research and be happy to share that.

Spencer: But, I think for the purpose of this, there are lots and lots, but those are a few of the big ones.

Mark: That’s great. I’ll definitely stick that. Send it over and we’ll put it in the show notes.

Victoria: Okay. So what are you seeing today that’s really driving results in SEO?

Spencer: Yeah. So what we’ve discovered, recently is that content is a really big part of the equation, content, keywords. But we’re starting to see kind of an interesting correlation with some external factors that have been surprising us in a kind of a nice way. And, several of my teammates kind of discovered I can’t necessarily take full credit for it, but, but as we’ve been publishing content, typically you would say, write a post and you would publish that, and then six months later, nine months later, a year later, you might be ranking on the first page.

Spencer: Google had to index it depending on how strong your site was. It would take a long time to move up in the rankings. What we’ve been doing to kind of accelerate that process is you still have to create really good content. You can’t get around that. It can’t just be junk content, but you create a really good piece of content for your blog post to be a web page.

Spencer: Then you publish it, then you start driving some traffic to it. So we’ll go ahead and post that to say Facebook or other social platforms. But let’s let’s talk about Facebook and then we boost that post. I’m sure a lot of people are familiar with that boost button. You can spend 510 bucks to boost a post. You could put 20 bucks to it.

Spencer: That’s better. So you boost the post, drive some more social activity and some traffic there, and then you take your email list and you send a targeted promotion to that blog post. And so let’s say we wrote it on cost. You know, how much does it cost to remodel my kitchen in Denver? Well, that’s a great email because a lot of people probably have that question.

Spencer: So you can send it to your list, say, hey, we just tackled this question. Thought you might be interested, check out the post. You drive a whole bunch of, you know, more traffic to that. That page. And what we’ve seen is we’ve been able to accelerate how quickly you move up in the ranking by driving all this activity.

Spencer: People get to the site, they’re spending time on the page. That’s another factor. And then if they engage with the site, they start clicking around. That’s been a good indicator as well. So I think today, right now that’s one of the coolest things that we’ve discovered as a way to accelerate your ranking. So you kind of have those three components that you can do fairly easily.

Spencer: You probably have a lot of those assets ready.

Mark: So Spencer, did you guys actually is it, did you actually do a, kind of like an AB test on this? Did you see, a jump or was it just a trend that you noticed?

Spencer: Yeah, it’s a good question. We haven’t done like a true AB test, but we’ve done this in several instances. We we kind of stumbled across it the first time, and we started to notice like, hey, why did this post jump up and ranking faster than a lot of others? It just take it takes time. And we looked at some of the things that we were just doing as a part of all the marketing activities, and some of those were social and boosting posts and email.

Spencer: And so we said, oh, maybe there’s like a little recipe here. Let’s try it again. Let’s try it again. And so far, it’s been a pretty good indicator of success in terms of following kind of that quick methodology, post some really great content, make sure you’ve got links in it. It’s helpful, share it on social, boost it and drive some email traffic to it.

Spencer: And so yeah, I guess not a true AB test, but we’ve seen it in probably half a dozen instances, and we’re doing it more and more. As time goes on.

Mark: That’s awesome. Some of the best, best discoveries were accidents, right? Tennis, penicillin, and, I think silly putty.

Victoria: All right, but now you marketing people explain what an AB test is to the audience. Not everybody’s gonna know that.

Spencer: So an AB test is basically, you can do an AB test with a number of things, but let’s say use email as an example. And you want to ab test your subject line and you’re trying to get the most opens. Basically that’s the goal of a subject line is I want more people to open this email. So an AB test on that email would be we’re going to run, some of our lists to headline a and some of our list to headline B, see if we find a winner, and then we’ll send that to everybody else because we know that’s the the winner.

Spencer: And then you can continue to ab test depending on what you’re doing. You know, if you’re running an ad say a Facebook ad, then you can continue to test headlines against each other and you always select the winner. The key is you only want to have one thing you’re changing each time. You don’t want to change multiple variables because then you’re guessing on, well, why did this one perform better?

Spencer: Oh, this was different. And this is different, you know. So AB test pick one thing. Run it, you know, against each other and pick the winner and do it again okay.

Victoria: There’s also a term you use previously that was good content not junk content. What do you mean.

Spencer: Yeah. So what we found is that at the end of the day, Google is trying to return the best results for their users, their users being people searching on Google. So whether that’s phone, tablet, desktop. So if you create junk content, you’re not going to get it shared on social media. So that’s as an SEO factor, a social signal.

Spencer: When people get there they’re going to bounce. They’re going to leave right away. They’re not going to reengage with your site and go deeper and click on things. And so what you want to do and you’re and the other thing is you’re not going to get links back to that post. So if you write something really helpful, another website or another blog might want to link back to it.

Spencer: And again, that’s another really powerful SEO factor. So by creating junk content, you’re just not doing yourself any favors. It’s going to be a really tough sledding to start to rank. And so if you create really helpful content, it becomes natural to share it on, on social media, you know, because you’re saying, hey, this is really helpful and valuable.

Spencer: I think people comment, share, like it, pass it along, send it to a friend, you know, and those things impact SEO. And they also just get you in front of more people. So because it’s actually good. And so by doing I guess by creating really, really helpful content, you’re setting yourself up for success with Google. But then also when people get there, they see you as an authority.

Spencer: They actually want to learn more about you and might want to work with you. Whereas if they go to your site and it’s junk, you know, they can just leave and go to the next one.

Victoria: So what if somebody has been creating content for years and they’ve got tons of content on their site, but they haven’t really seen a lot of results? What can they do to improve what they already have?

Spencer: Yeah, I’m really glad you asked that question because, somebody from from my office, Steven and I were talking about this just the other day, and we call it the process of historical blog optimization. And so it sounds really fancy, but it’s really just going back in time to your older blog posts and improving them. And there’s a few things that we can do to improve them.

Spencer: One is what you just said. You know, we’re talking about the quality of content. We can make that content better. So let’s say, we had a post called, seven Kitchen Design Trends that you should be aware of, something like that. So we go back to this post two years later. Well, one, we might have more trends that we can share.

Spencer: So we can make the posts longer, more helpful, give them more ideas. So maybe we can make it 15 trends. But some of those trends might be outdated as well. So what was trendy 2 or 3 years ago may not be trendy today, so we might need to refresh some of those and bring that post up to date.

Spencer: So especially if you see posts where it’s seven design trends for 2013, you know that post isn’t really good after 2013. So by upgrading the quality, your content, the freshness, the relevance to your content, you can actually republish that content as new. So change the published date on your post and it will bring it to the top of your blog feed.

Spencer: But Google sees that as fresh content, so that can actually improve your ranking. So that’s a part of the process that we use. After we’ve been helping a client blog for multiple years. We have some or we’ve been blogging for them for five, six years. We have all this old content. We’ve been bringing that up to the front, making it better, more relevant, and we see the rankings start to rise.

Spencer: So that’s one area that you can use to improve old content the other way is conversion. So let’s say on that post using the design ideas example, we had a call to action at the bottom. That’s a download our Home Design guide. So maybe we’re looking at this post and it’s from four years ago. And it’s getting a lot of traffic but it’s not converting.

Spencer: So now we can look at maybe we need to change the graphic on the that call to action. Maybe we need to use a different color, a different language. Maybe we should bring it higher up in the post so that people are scrolling down like one paragraph, and then they see it versus having to go all the way to the bottom.

Spencer: So there’s a lot of different things that we can do there. But the idea is if you look at your old blogs, you can say which blogs are actually getting traffic today, but they’re not converting. Okay, let’s go after those first. And then which blogs are converting at a good rate? I mean, they’re not getting enough traffic. So then maybe upgrade the quality of the content, the freshness and then bring it up to speed.

Spencer: The other nice thing is you don’t have to create new content, you’re just upgrading it. So it’s a lot less work to do that as well.

Mark: So Spencer, quick question on that. So with the, you said about updating old content, at what point do you decide, in a historical piece should be just updated and republished with a newer date versus writing another post as like a supplement or or, different variant. You use the example 2013 tips. Versus changing that.

Mark: Just creating a new post is 2018.

Spencer: Yeah. Great question. In that example, I would actually recommend that you use the old post every time versus creating a whole new post, because the old post isn’t really doing you anything right now. I mean, it’s it’s outdated content. Somebody might stumble across it, but do they really want to know the trends of 2013? Maybe. But that’s probably not the person looking to remodel their home in 2018.

Spencer: That’s maybe somebody doing some research around what was the trends in 2013. So maybe not your target audience and who you actually want reading that post. The benefit to using the old post and bringing it up to 2018. Refreshing it. That’s really important. You can’t just repost that. You have to make it better. You have to make it more relevant.

Spencer: But that page and that URL has been archived in Google for four years or five years or whatever time frame we’re talking about. So it has equity and authority built into it, and now we’re bringing the freshness up so it will actually perform better than a brand new post.

Mark: That’s that’s a great point. So one last question on that. Would you recommend putting like an editor’s note in there? This post was updated or anything like that?

Spencer: Absolutely. Yeah. It’s super common and it’s very transparent. You can say, hey, this post was originally published in 2013. We’ve updated it for relevance and freshness and this was the last published date. That’s great. It’s helpful to people and they know, hey, these are the current trends. I’m actually reading something that was thought about and and this was intentional.

Victoria: Okay. So we’ve been talking a lot about SEO. Was that the whole picture? I mean, how does it fit in? Does it need to have other supplementary marketing around it.

Spencer: Yeah. Good question. So we’ve already talked about a couple of the other elements I think throughout this, you know, conversation so far, we talked about email a little bit. We’ve talked about social media. And then we just as a part of that historical blog optimization, talked a little bit about conversion. And the thing that I get frustrated about and I, I really wish it for, for all the remodelers listening, is that you don’t get sucked into, just working on your SEO whether you do it in-house or you’re hiring somebody and they’re they’re doing SEO and it’s $400 a month, and that’s that’s all that’s going on, because really, all that’s you’re missing some

Spencer: of the other pieces that impact SEO. So I don’t see how you can really do an effective SEO strategy without social and, you know, some of these other things. But the other part is, let’s say you you are ranking number one, and you’re working with an SEO company, and they get you to the top for one keyword or ten keywords or 20.

Spencer: Once they get there, they still need to take action. We need them to get them to do something. Those visitors. And so I see that’s the biggest piece that’s missing out there right now is conversion. Having we like to call it top of the funnel, middle of the funnel and bottom of the funnel, top of the funnel.

Spencer: Offers are missing. So that would be something like a home design guide or remodeling process checklist, something that somebody can download. So they fill out a form, first name, last name, email, definitely a phone number if you can get it in exchange for premium content like an e-book or something. So you get somebody to your blog. It’s ranking really well.

Spencer: They read it and then there’s nothing to do. They go, cool, that was helpful. See you later. But if you have a way to capture them, then you can build your email list and and that kind of works you into that next phase, which is is this person ready to buy today? And if so, great. Let’s try to get the consultation set.

Spencer: Let’s do the pre qualification phone call. If they’re not ready to buy today and maybe they’re saving money. They’re researching. They’re six months out a year out. Let’s send some really good content like these blogs and things we’ve been talking about through email to build your trust, build your authority and then move them into the consultation. Step six months down the road when they’re ready.

Mark: So what’s the frequency? It sounds like a whole lot of work for the remodeling business owner here, right? So, he’s got a couple of options. Do it all himself. Hire somebody in-house. Outsource maybe combinations of all that. So, two things. At what point does the the owner decide he needs to go out beyond his own expertise?

Mark: And how frequently does he need to be doing all this stuff?

Spencer: Yeah, those are those are two big questions and good ones, I think. Let’s talk about frequency first. So for blogging, we recommend that if you can, once a week is a good it’s a solid amount of new content that you can be publishing that will move the needle. Of course, as we’ve talked about, you don’t want to just be blogging and you want to have a purpose.

Spencer: So I guess I’ll share a quick tip to get started. If blogging is kind of unfamiliar or it’s not a habit for you and your company, think of all the questions you get in the sales process. Answer those questions and make that the title of your blog. So we’ve talked about some of them. How much does it cost to remodel?

Spencer: What does the process look like? You know, what’s my involvement in the process? All those kinds of questions. But I’m sure you probably hear dozens when you’re talking to prospects. And if you answer those questions as people are doing their research, they’re going to be typing those questions into Google. So that’s a quick way to get started on the blogging.

Spencer: And I would say if you can shoot for 11A week, that’s a really good cadence. And it’s enough new content that you’ve got enough going on with your website to start moving it up and building up the authority, and then it also gives you good content, good fodder for social media and for email. So you can repurpose this stuff.

Spencer: So say you write for blogs. Well now you’ve automatically got for Facebook posts. And if you’re creative, you could create probably three different Facebook posts promoting the same blog with a different question or title or headline to that post, and you could space it out throughout the month. So maybe now you’ve got, you know, 12 posts on Facebook, you’re probably good for the month.

Spencer: You know, that’s a good cadence to, to start with there. And then for email, I would say at least start with a base monthly newsletter. So maybe you feature two of your favorite blogs from that month and send those in the newsletter and say, hey, we just launched these new resources. I hope you find them helpful. Here’s a link to the article.

Spencer: Here’s a photo. Here’s a link to the article. Here’s a photo. You can get really fancy with this stuff, but you also don’t need to. So if you’re just starting, just get started and build the habit and build the frequency.

Victoria: So how is.

Spencer: Your other part of your.

Mark: Question? Yeah that’s okay. That’s why I don’t do to put questions.

Spencer: Yeah.

Mark: At what point does the what’s the kind of the tipping point I can’t do this anymore on my own. And I need to outsource or higher.

Spencer: Yeah, I would say it’s a couple of components. One is time. So if you’re just finding that this is just sucking up way too much time, either for yourself or you’ve maybe got an office manager that’s doing several things and they’re having to write some blogs. That would be one thing is the time factor when you felt like this isn’t the best use of your time anymore, and you need to be spending time anywhere else, you probably hit that that one faster.

Spencer: The other one is expertise, and it kind of falls into the strategy perspective. So if you’re writing blogs and you’re not able to track your success, or you’re not able to measure what’s happening with your website and you need some outside expertise, then I would say that’s a good indicator. And whether that’s just a coaching engagement or you actually want somebody to just take this on and become your strategic marketing partner, that would just depend on what you’re looking for.

Spencer: But I would say you should have those measurement pieces in place and at least have a good strategy behind it. Otherwise, you’re just going to be blogging for the sake of blogging. You won’t really have a true purpose. You’ll get frustrated, and then you won’t stick with it long enough to see the fruition.

Mark: Is a great, great point. So my last question for you, Spencer, is are you ready for the lightning round?

Spencer: Oh man, the lightning, I don’t know, but let’s do it anyway. Oh, and now here’s a reminder. The lightning round.

Victoria: It’s a draft.

Mark: I put 60s on the clock. What’s your favorite business book and why?

Spencer: So I would say my favorite business book is actually it’s called Mindset The New Psychology of Success. And it’s about maintaining a growth mindset so you can continue to get better and better. And basically you can control your situation. You can always learn more and do more.

Mark: If you weren’t the president of Builder Funnel, what do you think you’d be doing.

Spencer: Playing beach volleyball.

Victoria: Nice. Yeah.

Mark: What are you not very good at?

Spencer: I’m terrible musically. Okay.

Mark: Your room, your desk or your car? Which do you clean first?

Spencer: Room. Desk, car, in that order.

Mark: What’s the last video game you played?

Spencer: Fortnite or Halo?

Mark: Name I use for bowling ball. Other than bowling and.

Spencer: Juggling.

Victoria: Up. Good job. Spencer, this was very interesting. Thank you so much for being part of this.

Spencer: It was an honor. Thank you guys for having me. I really appreciate.

Victoria: It. You know, and I know we only scratched the surface of all this, but I know that it’s really gets complex in there. So luckily, there’s resources like you out there to help these remodelers because holy mackerel.

Spencer: Yeah, there’s a lot going on. And yeah, I think we covered a lot. But yeah, there’s a lot under the surface too.

Victoria: Right? Right. We’ll have you back again to get more in depth on all the little intricacies. Before I get your five words of wisdom, why don’t you tell our listeners how they can reach you?

Spencer: Yeah. So I would say the easiest couple of ways are our website, which is builder funnel.com. And then shoot me an email. So I’m S Powell at Builder funnel.com.

Victoria: All right. Great.

Mark: We’ll stick them in the show notes.

Victoria: Yep. Great. So what are your five words of wisdom Spencer.

Spencer: So my five words of wisdom would be never stop learning or improving okay.

Victoria: So why does that resonate with you.

Spencer: It’s one of our our core values here at Builder Funnel is to always be learning. And it’s something that I’m very passionate about personally. We have a library here that I’ve been building of business books and marketing books, and I let everybody on the team, they can grab a book, check it out. We read books as a team, and I’ve just discovered over the last, I don’t know, eight, ten years.

Spencer: The more I read, the further it pushes me ahead and whatever I’m trying to do, because I don’t know everything. And I still got a lot to learn. And so I feel like you can always, if you’re always learning, you can look at yourself a year ago, two years ago and feel like, hey, I’m moving forward, whether that’s an inch or a mile.

Spencer: And it’s a good feeling, it feels like you’re bettering yourself.

Victoria: That’s awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that, that it’s really going to resonate with a lot of people. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. We appreciate it greatly. And I’m sure we’ll be running into you again soon and we’ll have you on again.

Spencer: Cool. That’s great. Thank you guys for having me.

Mark: See you in Orleans by.

Spencer: See you.

Mark: The Mysteries of SEO.

Victoria: You know, that was really interesting. Know the strategies that they came up with and how they discovered the that little triumvirate of social media and boosts and emails and good content all sort of tied together.

Mark: It is one of my favorite things of of marketing. And why, one of the things that always drove me was seeing the needle move. And, and sometimes you do it intentionally and that’s great because it’s like, I did this. I’ll look at that. Everything’s great. But when you see a needle move more than expected or something like that, and then you have to go and figure it out, that’s just to me, it’s just the most exciting thing.

Mark: I think you remember a few years back, I did, an email that we just got massive. And then when I tried to do it again the year following, it didn’t have the same. And I was trying to constantly find what was the fly in the ointment. Yeah, it was something different. And and just working those problems is to me a very exciting thing.

Victoria: I could see that. Yeah, this and this. It seems like there’s so many ways you could play around with the angles that you take the new, you know, the, the keywords, the headlines, how you boost it when you post it, how often you put some. There’s just so many variables in it.

Mark: It definitely can get way out of control for a business owner to try to do all on his own, especially when he’s wearing too many hats. Once the team starts to grow some, I think you have a little bit more time to invest in it if you’re interested in that part. I always say, as the business owner, you have the luxury of being able to focus on what you enjoy.

Mark: So, if that happens to be your thing then do it. But if not you should also outsource it because it does. You can’t keep up especially with Google and the SEO part of it. It just changes. Yeah. So fast.

Victoria: Yeah. It seems like if you’re not fully engaged in that, it would be really a challenge to be at the top of your game, and then you’re missing opportunities.

Mark: And Spencer and I, we’re very much alike. We have very much the same philosophies. I did notice another difference where he said he doesn’t know everything. So.

Victoria: Oh, yes.

Mark: So I guess one day he can be more like me, but not.

Victoria: I’m shaking my head with dismay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark: Well, you know, if we can’t have fun, that’s what we doing. That’s right. That was a great one. Yeah. And, you know, another point that Spencer made was about having the calls to action to update over time. And, and, you know, this is something that I’d like to hand on a little bit more for all the listeners.

Mark: Have a call to action as often as possible. Every blog post, even if the call to action is to comment on the post, make people engage with you in some way. Always. You’re putting all that content out there. Ask for engagement. In fact, in honor of that, okay, let’s have a call to action.

Victoria: I like it.

Mark: How about if everybody comes out to summit next week?

Victoria: Well, that’s a good one. I like that, okay. If you expect all of you there, we’re going to be watching for you everybody.

Mark: And also, if you’re interested in learning more about roundtables, listen to Naomi after this segment. And she’ll tell you all about it.

Victoria: Good. That was a great episode. Good call to action. I look forward to seeing everybody soon. Yeah. And, another one in the can.

Mark: Yeah, it was next week. New Orleans.

Victoria: This is Victoria Downing.

Mark: And I’m like, all right, we’ll see you next week. Maybe.