Mark: Today on PowerTips Unscripted. We talked to Alan Hanbury, president of House of Hanbury Builders Inc. in Newington, Connecticut. Helen, recently retired after 45 years, is the owner of a full service remodeling firm. He’s here today to share what he’s found to be the most common mistakes Remodelers make that are costing you money. And we’ll hear what they are in just a minute.

Victoria: Hi, I’m Victoria Downing and welcome to PowerTips Unscripted where we talk about tips, tactics and techniques to help you build a strong, profitable remodeling company. And I’m here with my co-host, Mark Harari.

Mark: Hey there. How are.

Victoria: You? Pretty good. How are you?

Mark: Pretty good.

Victoria: Yeah, we had our first snow here in Maryland, so that was kind of makes us feel like it’s all wintery.

Mark: Yeah, many, many weeks ago.

Victoria: Yeah, yeah. That’s right. Many, many weeks ago. I forget.

Mark: Inside joke.

Victoria: So I’m really excited about our guest today at somebody I’ve known for a long time is, what do you call. What’s the term like keeping a stellar, foundational person in the industry?

Mark: Mark, like.

Victoria: Yeah, yeah, yeah, just an important person in the industry. So I’m really excited to have him here today. And we’re going to talk about all the things he learned, all the things he’s been teaching.

Mark: Yeah, it’s going to be great stuff. Excited.

Victoria: So shall we go?

Mark: Totally.

Victoria: Let’s do it today I’m delighted to have with me, Alan Hanbury has been instrumental in so many aspects of the industry for many, many years. He and his brother Bob, or we’ve been involved in Nahb and the Remodelers Council, written articles, taught thousands of Remodelers more about running their business, and I’m just really delighted to have him here with us.

Victoria: So welcome, Alan.

Alan: Thank you.

Victoria: So congratulations on being inducted to the Housing Hall of Fame. Recently I saw that article come out. That’s very cool. And and very well deserved.

Alan: It’s kind of nice when they give it to you before you’re done.

Victoria: Yes, indeed. And you’re far from dead. You got a lot of life left in you, don’t you, Alan?

Alan: I’m hoping so.

Victoria: Even with. Even though you just retired. So that was that a hard, hard decision to make to stop working actively in a company?

Alan: Yeah. You got to be kidding me. And you, you spent 55 hours of your of your life every week for 40 years. My brother Bob retired four years ago. I had considered it. I had back surgery. So, I’m sure if nothing was going to turn out, I don’t want to leave on those terms. So I, you know, I sort of ran a practice for the last three and a half years.

Victoria: Okay, well, hey, nothing wrong with that.

Alan: So you. Yeah, it wasn’t so hard to to back out entirely, but I still get calls from past clients and I’m still probably going to do a couple of. And I haven’t sold the truck or the tools. Oh.

Victoria: Yeah. That’ll be the last thing to go, But that was always leave your options open. All right. So over the years, again, not only have you been running your own business, but you have taught so many. And I know as a as a presenter also, you learn so much from the people that you’re talking with and learning about their problems and challenges and so on.

Victoria: So I know you’ve picked up a ton of knowledge, and I want to talk to you about some of the top mistakes that you see and have seen Remodelers make over the years. What would you say is one of the the first areas of mistake?

Alan: You know, it’s it’s funny how most of the folks that are in our business come up from the, from the, from the back to the floor, so to speak. They’re, they’re carpenters or, you know, they decide their boss is an idiot so that, you know, they, they’ve been trained by the city, by the way they start their own businesses.

Alan: And what they fail to understand is that paperwork the bane of, you know, why they probably hated, you know, part of the job that they had with their boss is now something that they’re in charge of. And job costing is is sort of the, the, the reality check of our lives. If you don’t literally go back and look to see if you made money or if you chose the right product for the right client or the, you know, any of those number of the things that you’re basically practicing insanity, you’re doing the same thing over and over again, expecting some sort of different outcomes.

Alan: And by not doing job costing and doing it right, they’re, they’re not able to change jobs midstream.

Victoria: How do you mean?

Alan: Well, if you have a job costing system and it’s running on the accrual system, cash basis is only good for paying taxes, as you’re well aware, right. We now know how fast costs are coming in. And if they’re coming in faster than our estimates that it was supposed to come in, we’ve got a problem. We can find it out literally every Friday.

Alan: I would look at reports and tell the leads that, hey, listen, by the way, you’re over on ours, but you’re under on cost because you were able to use Dennis instead of Bob is your helper. So we can save money by choosing right who’s going to be, in that crew? And if you didn’t know that, and you put Bob and Dave on that job, and we’re cranking out at 70 bucks an hour each for actual burden, cost for them.

Alan: So their job, it goes down faster. So my job costing in a timely fashion, accrual based, we have an opportunity to save things. Or we can, maybe boost the cost to a change or fee to something more appropriate to the pain that they provided you. All right. I mean, it’s I call it the great equalizer change orders of the great equalizer.

Alan: So by not embracing doing good estimate and then tying them into good job costing, they’ve given up a huge opportunity to correct estimating system, choose the right lead carpenter for that particular type of job. Maybe not. Do that particular type of job ever.

Victoria: Again, right?

Alan: It also helps us figure out bad clients or people that, maybe not be a good fit for us, but you can never make money working for this type of person right now.

Victoria: You are. You are really known as a numbers guy, right? You get it? And I love numbers too. And just being able to watch that data and make changes and modifications to improve the performance. So job costing is something that people, some people are not doing on a regular basis. Could you give us two or 3 or 4 tips on how to do job costing, as you said in a timely manner, efficiently, effectively?

Alan: Okay. So the first thing you want to do is you actually want to embrace getting bills as soon as you can. I mean, a lot of people that are on the cash basis, they don’t know what their costs are because they’re afraid to put that number into their system because it means they have to have to cut a check.

Alan: So obviously, you know, if you’re if you’re accounting system allows you to cash hand or cool at the same time like QuickBooks does, stay in the accrual side, get the bills in as quickly as you can, figure out if you’re making money quicker or losing money quicker, or if you if you have to make some sort of, you know, on the fly changes, the estimate has to be done in the same detail as the job cost.

Alan: So when you’re setting up your original job costing system, make sure it has enough entry levels to pick up all the stuff that would be in your estimate. Because if you’re not applying to Apple and you’re really never going to be able to forensically come back and see what what caused the problem.

Victoria: What about reviewing that like you talked about every week? You would you would pull up those reports. What would you see in that report? Was it a QuickBooks report and what would you do with that then?

Alan: Okay, I don’t use QuickBooks. I’d use the same computer system for my business since 1989, all the permutations that come out. But it does allow you to, convert things to percent complete. And that’s a whole different conversation. Right? But it did allow me to put in what I knew was going to be cost that had been committed, but not paid yet.

Alan: And I could also guess how much, you know, extra labor I’d have to put in and also allow me to enter in change orders allowance. Plus and minuses and stuff so that we were constantly knowing what our estimating should be at that very moment. People that are not doing that are obviously, losing out.

Alan: So every Friday we would come back in, we would, we would see how much, payroll was done on Friday mornings. All the AP bills would come in by Thursday night. I would look over each and every one to make sure they were costed, so they would show up in the job cost report in the proper place, because again, that’s garbage in, garbage out.

Alan: And then on Friday afternoon, we go back and look to see where the where the variances might be. And they might have been in labor hours, but not in labor dollars. I’m okay with that. Yep. As we’ve now chosen to use, a different mix of people that cost less but take a little longer to do so. No big deal.

Alan: Well, it was the client’s happy.

Victoria: That’s right.

Alan: And so by 4:00 or 430, when the people were coming back to the office to pick up their checks, I now have a little, you know, interim report as to where they stand. Okay. You’re over on labor. It looks like the surprises are coming in. Okay. If there are no changes. The scopes were correct. You’re fine. So, you know, maybe confirm with the with this sub that the scope is exactly what they expected.

Alan: And that’s exactly what there’s including their price. And you can pretty much sleep the weekend pretty well. All right. Fine. Then there’s a little bit of work that maybe you change this up. Maybe you literally change the subcontractor for next week’s job. But try to catch up.

Victoria: Right. Okay. Good. You know, I believe that, too. So, so many people don’t want to look at these reports because I think they don’t want to know. But you don’t know. How do you fix it?

Alan: You can’t kid the kid or, like, get the man in the mirror. That’s a that’s where the well and the man. If I was a woman, I’d say the woman right there. It’s literally it’s oftentimes it’s our own fault, okay? We’re our worst enemies. Right? Trash. Unbelievable.

Victoria: Yep. Right. Let’s talk a little bit about, labor shortage, which is such a thing right now. I mean, business seems to be for so many of our members, just, you know, booming break and breaking through records. But labor is an issue. So talk a little bit about that. Who to hire, when or if.

Alan: Well, here’s here’s the deal that most people don’t let their people work overtime. They say constantly it’s 50% blah blah blah. Is it really 50%? No, of course not. You know why? Because the only party goes on. Is your worker’s comp cost. No, no. Only your physical, only your actual labor and maybe a couple other things. Everything else health, vacation, holiday, those things all stay the same.

Alan: If you’ve got a good perk package. For instance, our company back in the day, our average perk package was $0.89 and a dollar. So $0.50 on a dollar. There’s no big deal. That’s actually less than the 80, for instance. Enough. So we we’ve been trying to get people to work up to 8 or 10 hours of overtime to make up for these, you know, sort of squashes on our schedule when we were behind.

Alan: We can’t do that for the whole year necessarily, because people burn out at the right time. But for small, short periods, it’s very easy to get almost the whole employee by having five people over ten hours of overtime. You got a to play?

Victoria: Yep.

Alan: Hire somebody. What do you got going on? You got you got you looking through the paper. You know, taking referrals from if you’re not working now, are you really somebody you want to hire?

Victoria: Think about it. Right. Oh no kidding.

Alan: It almost would be as good as going down to Home Depot and picking somebody up in the parking lot. Yeah. So hiring is expensive because you got training, you got a new vehicle, maybe you might have a laptop. You certainly have phone issues. You got communications, all that kind of stuff. And there’s the onboarding. Yeah. Thinking about it from my own standpoint, if I were to onboard someone to be a salesperson, which is usually the first thing people hire, I’ll talk about that in a second.

Alan: All right. And now I’ve got to spend 75% of my time for the first couple of months letting them know, you know what our pricing structure is, what our client’s expectations are, what the culture of the company has been. And we want to maintain, you know, we don’t you don’t work for less than this margin and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Alan: So there’s a learning curve. There’s a lot of lack of production from the owner. Right. It all adds up to, you know, maybe cost twice as much as the person you’re hired. Oh, here’s the problem with, like, hiring a salesperson. If I were to try to hire a salesperson, I would know they should sell maybe 1,000,005, right? That’s how much I sell it.

Alan: That’s all I did. Yes. Okay. So let’s say sells 1,000,005. I should be happy right?

Victoria: Yes.

Alan: Right. I know because if I sell 1,000,005 what do I have to do. I have to find five more carpenters to install it. You know, $1,000 a carpenter. I need to find five people just to hire one. Wow. Now I got a real problem. So if you have to, if you have to start thinking about the unintended consequences of being successful in a market where there’s not enough people to let that happen, I say I think the supply chain, if I try to do $1 million today and then I want to do another an extra 500,000 even from, from for this next year.

Alan: Between the supply chain issues waiting six and eight weeks for windows and three months for signing. Are you kidding me? That would throw us so many schedules and we make so little money that we would die from starvation. We would die from indigestion.

Victoria: Hey folks, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while, you’ve likely heard me refer to our Roundtable’s peer Group program. We have a bunch of our members on the podcast in the past, and I always try to give them a shout out. Now, if you’re not familiar with roundtables, it is the industry’s largest peer group program, and we’ve been hosting them and the peer groups for over 30 years.

Victoria: We bring together groups of 10 to 12 business owners from non competing markets to share strategies, to share experiences, to help one another build action plans to drive the results of each of these companies forward in a way that I’ve never seen before. We know that you can be successful on your own, but by working with roundtables and a group of your motivated peers, you can cut your progress time in half.

Victoria: There’s just nothing like it. Why be alone? Why figure this stuff out all by yourself when you can figure it out? With a group of people who know exactly how your business works, what your challenges are, and will share how they overcame each of these, we’d love to have you join us. If you want to learn more about this, visit our website at remodelers.

Victoria: Advantage.com or talk to Steve Wheeler at Steve at Remodelers advantage.com, and he can give you more information about the program. Seats are limited because they have to be non competing market. So call today and get to be part of this incredible community of generous, smart, savvy, motivated remodeling company owners. So in a different market when labor was not as tight as it is now, you’re perspective, which changed pretty dramatically, I would think.

Alan: Well, absolutely. But you still need to figure out how much that person could produce if they were like a production manager or how much that person could sell if they end up being your salesperson. And by having a good job costing system, you can actually turn, that everyone filling out a timecard you know exactly how long you’ve been spending on the estimate, the design portion of it, the sales calls, the contract writing.

Alan: But you can literally have 5 or 6 jobs, cost course clothes, cost codes for what you do now so that you know exactly how much time your hire should be taking to do that. If they were as efficient as you are. I think for production managers, for supervising, for pulling permits, for, you know, going through the punch list and timing and warranty issues, all those things you could actually have as human records.

Alan: So knowing that when you hire the next person, they’ll have a full time job.

Victoria: Now, a lot of people don’t do time cards for, people who are salaried, production managers. Often you recommend having them keep time cards as well.

Alan: I started my business in March of 1976 on the sixth, starting on the 15th of March. And ever since, I’ve always fill out a time card. Everyone in our firm fills out a time and always has. Wow. I have records going back to 1991. My computer right now, well, that’s I can go back and look how long it takes to do your sales, how long you should have spent at Nahb.

Victoria: Yeah, yeah. There you go. Good for you. That’s awesome. Now talk to me a little bit. You mentioned referrals. Why are they such an important part of, of a successful remodeling company?

Alan: Well, they definitely aren’t.

Victoria: How do you mean?

Alan: Well, let’s think about this. Let’s say you’ve decided to start your own business, and this is really red hot market like, right now. So let’s say you build a deck for your neighbor. The deck thinks you did a fabulous job. So what are they going to do? They’re going to refer you to their friends who want to do what a kitchen deck.

Victoria: Right.

Alan: So do you want to be a deck builder when you grow up? I mean, you know, some of us do, but maybe you really think you’re a good designer. You want to do kitchens because of that referral chain that started with your first job, give you any value toward your long term plan or even your short term plans?

Alan: Probably not. But you’re you’re allowing someone else to steer the ship. You’re a referral based now, what happens when referrals work? When the when the market cools, what’s the first thing that stops coming in? Referrals. Because people aren’t asking their friends who did your work as they’re not doing any work? That’s right. You done. So the things that shuts up the quickest is referrals.

Alan: Are they valuable? Absolutely. There was a replay of an article that sell a funnel I done about ten years ago. I just got it in the mail last night, and I’d already. I taught a course yesterday that had a whole section on referrals and why they’re so good to serve them. Let me just go through a couple of things that I expressed in that class yesterday on the referral.

Alan: Should you allow them to direct your company’s success? Should they be choosing your product niche for you to do they always provide an ideal customer? I had a client once that, 1010 names on under, Speedo, using the phone to call a supplier because, they weren’t there. The truck hasn’t come yet, and I’m looking at the names.

Alan: There’s nine people I recognize as clients I’ve actually worked for. Oh, wow. So I asked them, can I go for DNA? And I’m a little nosy. Here’s what was waiting on their phone. I saw that there’s ten names on here, nine of which I’ve actually done work for, and I’m pretty sure that you’re the reason. Thank you so much, because I said.

Alan: But, you know, I’m not, I’m not Nancy, because, you don’t want to work for her. She’s a witch. And I didn’t used to work with. Okay. That’s great. That’s the kind of reason that referrals are not all that good unless you have them working for you. Yeah. You know, sort of being your qualifier, and they, you know, they’re going to do they dictate your company’s expectations.

Alan: I mean, there’s a lot of offers that give people names. They know they’re going to give you a hard time, and they’re but there you never are.

Victoria: You bet.

Alan: Right. So having a referrer or give you a name means you have to pursue it a little bit. But it doesn’t mean you should give them any more leeway. And to want you to say to be your ideal job, your ideal client, your ideal, demographic because you’re asking for trouble. You know, politely call them back and tell them you know, but if you’re doing more than 60% direct referrals, you’re not really a business person.

Alan: You’re an order taker.

Victoria: That’s a good point. That’s a good point. And we talk about that all the time, too. When somebody comes in like we don’t, we do no marketing. We get all of our business. The referrals. What would you say to that Coke?

Alan: And why would Coke and Pepsi spend $1 billion a year in advertising? If the last Coke tasted good, you’d buy another one. True. Nobody’s got a you know why, why, why would Mercedes worry about competing with Kia? But they do. So there’s there’s good reason somewhere.

Victoria: Now, if you were going to give one piece of advice right now to Remodelers, that are trying to improve, what would it be?

Alan: You know, you’re probably going to already know the House, understand the math.

Victoria:

Alan: Discounting the math, on discounting the math and on ignoring slippage, that 7% silent partner, $1 million company that’s 70 grand. There’s a lot of owners out there in $1 million that don’t make seven.

Victoria: No kidding.

Alan: And you got to sell part. You don’t care about to take 70 grand away from you. So be you need to be able to know the math and then you know, so the you’re able to build that cost into the cost of doing business. Right. Okay. So if you think you need a 30% margin, which is a 43% markup, and every year you end up at 23, okay, that’s like another Cubist that’s put it in the estimate.

Alan: Yeah. So then you need 37% margin markup 59% and boom you end up with 30. Everybody’s happy. The client maybe not so but you pay for reality into your math. There you go into your company’s price. Right? Yeah. Like leverage.

Mark: And like we back up for a second. Earlier you mentioned how, people owners want to hire salespeople first. And you said we, I could go on about that. Could you, could you touch a little bit on that? You obviously had some kind of a concern point on that.

Alan: There’s a guy by the name of Tom Schwartz. I know that Vicki knows him very well, and he told us, you know, he was in a session at the remodeling show in year and so else. You know, what’s the best way to, you know, the Hanover salespeople goes. They’ll have, you know, he said, I’ve gone through 25 different pay packages.

Alan: I can never get one that incentivized them to be a minimum. Right. So it’s very difficult to teach someone to have a personality. And, you know, if you’ve built your business on a particular personality. I’m a little bit facetious, bit of a wise guy. And you get somebody out there that’s a not sure the people are going to say, well, what’s this guy?

Alan: You know, this is not the kind of fun environment I was expecting from the sales process. So it’s not always about just, you know, being able to present the numbers and get the right product and stuff in there. It’s literally about the, the, the personality and the and the the process of the sale process and how you kind of walk people.

Alan: You know, a lot of people have want to do things like put in orange countertops. So it’s very difficult to just to politely tell them that’s stupid. And so their skill sets that are outside of the actual the numbers game. So and I think that most people, if you know, if they were to, say what makes their company different, it’s about their sales process, not about the production, not about the carpenter, not about how good they clean stuff, about the impact people’s grass.

Alan: So if you’re going to give away the best part of your company’s, reputation, if you will, for somebody, a third party you’ve never met before, not somebody who baked and cooked to perfection in your own oven, you’re risking your entire business. It can be selling jobs under margin. They can be, selling jobs that they’re going to leave to go do on their own later on.

Alan: I can give you, scenarios of of why Bob and I never hired and kept the sales person after the first or second.

Mark: That’s an interesting take.

Victoria: Yeah.

Mark: Cool. So, Well, Alan, I have one last question for you. Are you ready for the lightning round work?

Alan: Okay. Oh, and now here’s a reminder. Advantage lightning round. It’s a draft.

Mark: All right, let’s put 60s on the clock. Here we go. What is your favorite business book and why?

Alan: Well, I actually had to, I like Stephen Colby’s seven habits. And, you know, some at the end of the line has been something I’ve lived by ever since I read the book. And the other one is some of my cheese. I read it, like, 20 years ago. And, you know, it’s even more appropriate now because it really talks about change.

Alan: And we’re in a we’re in a situation in the last 2 or 3 years, we forget Covid, but that makes even the worst thing, where everything has changed, literally everything you thought would be incorrect and make you successful. And you’re the you’re the captain of the ship. All those things have. I’ve literally gone out the window. Weird. Groundhog day is what would it be literally been in for, you know, maybe the last 9 or 10 months now.

Alan: So I think those kinds of books, sort of open your eyes up to, you know, how you should be running your business and how you should embrace change.

Mark: If you hadn’t gotten to remodeling and and a remodeling company, what do you think you have been doing?

Alan: I would have retired ten years ago. I’d be living on an island, but I think that I’d be a forensic accountant. I have a little bit of a serious side to me. I can I can honestly think, totally, legally, it would be a lot easier for a person with my mindset, because I really like to get into the nuts and bolts system to figure out how people cheated.

Mark: What do you not very good at?

Alan: You could ask my wife or be a list. I don’t like losing.

Mark: Your room, your desk or your car. Which would you clean first?

Alan: So that would do my room.

Mark: How would the oddest pair of shoes you have?

Alan: Oh, I own a pair of tango boots from 1979.

Victoria: Do you still wear them?

Alan: My wife programing. I would like to go someplace.

Mark: I guess they made it to your Hall of Fame,

Alan: No. They didn’t. Yeah, I’ve had them as long as I’ve been a member of any.

Victoria: Oh, wow. Well, so, Alan, this has been great. I really appreciate you taking the time to be on here to sort of sharing some of your knowledge and all that stuff you’ve learned over, you know, through the school of hard knocks and all the teachings that you’ve done over the years. So I really appreciate it. But before I let you go, I want you to share your five words of wisdom with our listening audience and why they resonate with you.

Alan: I think I wrote, Aim High because gravity sucks. Yes. It’s one of the it’s it’s about winning. If you really want to make it to the to the end where you thought you wanted to be, you know, start with the end in mind. Here we go with Cody. You need to actually aim high if you’ve ever thrown a snowball.

Alan: I mean, some of us in the East Coast had plenty of chances the last couple days. Or if you’re shooting a bow and arrow or something, if you’re not aiming higher than the target, there’s no way you’re ever going to get there. And one of the things I’ve always laughed about, and I sometimes even bring it up in my sessions, is, you know, how many people get up in the morning, walk to the mirror and say, sure hope to be average today.

Victoria: Right?

Alan: I mean, is that the person you want working on your house? So again, if you’re not looking at the 25 top percentage of whatever you do for a living or whatever sport you’re in, I think you’re missing the boat. And you’re not only missing the boat picture, you’re missing the opportunity to see how good you really can be.

Victoria: That’s wonderful. Wonderful sentiment. Thank you so much, Ellen. We appreciate you being here. It’s going to be a great episode. And, so right now the company is closed. If people want to reach out to you, how would they do that?

Alan: They can email me, at, Ellen H at House of hanbury.com or an email which would give me, if you can tell me quicker because I look at that all the time and I do, I’m going to be doing some consulting and certainly continue my teaching and stuff. So I’d love to hear from people. This is this has been my life for, I don’t know, since I was actually nine.

Alan: I got my personal tools. Yeah. So.

Victoria: Well, wonderful.

Alan: I’m bored.

Victoria: All right. Thank you so much, Ellen.

Alan: I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.

Victoria: You know, Ellen is, really an interesting person in the industry because he’s very he’s very opinionated, as he says. But he’s just been around so much. He’s and he sees things from a little bit of a different angle than many.

Mark: I think it’s great that, it there’s nothing worse than just kind of trying to walk that middle of the line, being in the center, trying to keep everyone happy, say the things in aren’t going to offend anybody. Not that he offended anybody, but he has opinions about things. You know, I don’t necessarily agree 100% with the sales person perspective, but it’s a valid argument.

Mark: Certainly it’s good to to have an opinion about something and throw it out there. I think some people’s ears perked up listening to that, so might have perked down. I don’t know if that’s a thing, but you know what I mean. Yeah. But those are the kinds of things I think it’s great to have these different thoughts and opinions on a show.

Mark: I mean, he’s definitely got some really interesting insights on some different topics, for sure.

Victoria: And the place where he really supports what we think of, of course. And I think anybody who’s a teacher in the industry is no, the math. No. The formula. No, the plan for profit, no how the numbers fit together. Yeah. You know, without that what.

Mark: I just he the thing he said about average and it just, it took me straight to, you know, like he said, you know, go woke up and want to be really average today. It took me straight to it. You know, George Carlin bit. I love George Carlin. He was such a genius. Do you know the average it was.

Mark: Let me think if I get it exactly right. He he said, because he’s frustrated with just how stupid people are, right? I mean, he said, just think about how dumb the average person is and then realize 50% of everyone is dumber than that.

Victoria: That’s good.

Mark: So anyway, I don’t know. It just took me, my mind is weird. Yes. It takes different things, trigger different memories. But no, that was some good stuff. And I gotta tell you, I. We should actually ask him if he could take a picture of those shoes. Oh, I want to see that she knows something. So let’s put them in that show notes?

Victoria: Yeah, the shoe notes.

Mark: Allen ties. Shoe notes. Oh, gosh. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Allen shoes.

Victoria: Yes. There you go.

Mark: So we want to thank Allen for being here and sharing his insights on common mistakes that Remodelers make. And of course, we want to thank you for listening week in and week out. I am Mark Harari and.

Victoria: I’m Victoria Downing. See you next week.