Mark: Today on PowerTips Unscripted. We talked to Jef Forward. President of Forward Design Build Remodel in Ann Arbor, Michigan. If you’ve ever spoken to Judith Miller, you know that there are five stages to company growth, and transitioning from stage three to stage four is one of the most complex phases. As stage four requires a different owner skill set from that of a stage three.

Mark: Jef is here to explain his experience with this tricky move, and we’re going to hear about it in just a minute.

Victoria: Hi, I’m Victoria Downing and welcome to PowerTips Unscripted where we talk about tips, tactics and techniques to help you build a strong, profitable remodeling company. And I’m here with my co-host, Marc Ferrari.

Mark: You sure are. Thanks for remembering me.

Victoria: That I do forget you once.

Mark: It’s nice to be back in Baltimore, and we’ve been traveling a lot lately.

Victoria: Yeah. Yeah. You were doing it on the last one on the road in Las Vegas at Cabela’s.

Mark: Yeah, it’s phoning in, recording it on my phone, so.

Victoria: But you didn’t really phone it in? Yeah, actually, I did a good job.

Mark: I don’t know, I thought I found it in, but it’s okay.

Victoria: So today we have a really interesting topic. You know, we talk a lot about growing your business in a variety of ways. And just the changes that have to take place in so many parts of the business when you’re going through this. So, you know, today Jef’s going to talk a little bit about what he’s going through as the leader and owner of a company.

Mark: I’m very excited to hear about this transition. It is a tricky move to go from stage three and stage four. But you know, I don’t want to dig too deep into it. I said, Jef, even explain what what it is.

Victoria: All right. Great. Let’s go. Jef Forward is co-owner with his wife, Monica of Forward Design Build Remodeling in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Jef has participated in roundtables for many years, and he’s currently a member of the mentor for group. Over the last six years, they have substantially grown the business and increased customer satisfaction and net profits through a team approach.

Victoria: So today, Jef’s here to talk to us about how he moved from stage three to stage four. Hey, Jef, welcome aboard.

Jef: What?

Victoria: We’re all standing here watching you as you’re frozen. There you go. We’re ready. Your picture is frozen.

Jef: Yeah. You guys guys are frozen. Two.

Victoria: Are we?

Jef: I guess so you guys went dead for a little bit, and I was like, oh my gosh, what’s going on?

Mark: It’s okay. We just had a glitch in the matrix.

Victoria: That’s all. That’s really. So hey, say hi to Jef. Forward.

Jef: Hello. How are you?

Victoria: Oh, great. Thanks a lot for participating in this, Jef.

Jef: No, it’s, really looking forward to this. This is a fun conversation.

Victoria: You know, you are a very generous member, a really, you personify that generosity of our roundtable members because you have presented on the main stage at summit. You’ve done, a power talk at summit, you’ve shared you share so much with your fellow members, and now you’re doing a podcast with us. So it’s.

Jef: Awesome. Thank you very much. But it really that is a 10th of what I received from this group. So I’m happy to give back in whatever way I can.

Victoria: Awesome. So Jef, we’re talking today about how you moved your company from a stage three to a stage four, but a lot of our listeners may not be familiar with those stages or even know there are stages. Can you give us a little brief run through of the five stages?

Jef: Yes. Okay. So the five stages of remodeling growth, I am pulling this directly from an article written by Judith Miller, and it’s one of the best articles that I have ever read on the topic, and I reference it often, but the five stages a in a quick overview, our stage one the owner does it all. Stage two the owner starts to delegate.

Jef: At stage three. She calls the sweet spot where the owner has delegated everything with the exception of sales and client management. And then stage four is complexity grows, and that’s where more systems are coming into place and the owner moves away from the selling and towards only, say, 20% of the revenue. And then stage five is the end game.

Jef: And that’s where all tasks are delegated by the owner. And the owner is focused on the transition into the next stage, either new owners or, retirement.

Victoria: I wonder why she says that that stage three is that sweet spot. And if that’s the case, why did you want to move out of it?

Jef: That’s a great question. She calls that the sweet spot because, as a business owner, you can technically run this practice, which I like to call a stage three, into retirement. And she specifically references that you can, if you’re hitting all your target numbers, that you could probably retire and that between 70 and 75 years old.

Jef: And, but for me, why I wanted to grow into a stage four company. I wanted to move out of being responsible for all of the sales. I still like the idea of being the rainmaker, but I like the idea of the Rainmaker in terms of the teacher and the mentor. And, And then. I’m sorry. After that, I wanted the business to survive after me.

Jef: And I also wanted to create more room for my employees to prosper. I didn’t want to have a ceiling, imposed on them by our growth being at the same position every year.

Victoria: How do you mean?

Jef: Well, if I have, a a driven employee and they are motivated by the work that they’re doing, I want to give them the opportunity to earn more money and also grow with our business.

Victoria: Okay. All right. Great. Which is really important. If you hire superstar, you want to keep them. And you got to keep them excited.

Jef: Correct? Correct.

Victoria: Okay. So as you were doing this, how long of a I mean, are you already a solid. Are you now a solid stage four.

Jef: Yes, I am selling less than 20% of the revenue we generate.

Victoria: So how long ago did you decide to make this transition and get this whole process moving?

Jef: This was I would say when I started to come back in towards into IRA in 2011, 2012, after the recession and moved through Ann Arbor. And I decided at that point that I wanted to have a different team approach. I had, employees before, but I didn’t have the greatest culture. I didn’t have, a the best, absolute best employees.

Jef: I had a few superstars, but as a team, we were we were not very strong. And I wanted to change, how we were going to do that. And but once I started on that path, I quickly realized to keep the people that I had, I needed to have a different outlook on where we were going. Then that was it.

Jef: I decided at that point that, we could do a lot more than we think we can and that we can with more people. We can go further.

Mark: Jef, please step back for one second and give our audience, a snapshot of your company. What’s it look like right now? Size positions, how many employees.

Jef: We are completing? 24 construction projects a year, and we have an average job size in the $260,000 range. And we have, production manager, three project managers and five carpenters working under them. And then on our design side, we have, five project designers and design assistants with them, and then two salespeople besides myself, office manager, the marketing manager and a financial manager and two estimators.

Jef: Wow.

Victoria: Quite a big staff. Okay.

Jef: Corbin’s okay. So roughly 24 people right now.

Victoria: So you wanted to change the culture. You wanted to build your team to be stronger as a stronger unit? You started back in around 2011 to start to build this. How long did it take to you feel you really made the transition then? Has it been a couple of years already or are you just hitting it now?

Jef: We’re just hitting it now. I would say in that we hired our second sales person, at the end of last year, and she’s making a really solid transition. And, also with the my work hours, going down and being less involved in the day to day operation of the business.

Victoria: How many hours about do you work now?

Jef: Well, the last four months have been a little unique for some different personal reasons, health wise. Who was my wife? But, the average I would say is 45, 40 to 45.

Victoria: Okay, good, good, good. Just what we want. Yeah. Okay. So has the whole process gone as you planned it?

Jef: Yes. There’s been a few, tweaks in here, but we spent a lot of time in the planning, with developing yearly action plans that related to a specific org chart and, with stated triggers of when we achieve certain certain milestones. We were, foreseeing the next action or pulling the next, lever, so to speak.

Jef: But yes, the we’ve been working the plan following our process and where we still have a, we’re still climbing that mountain, but we’ve gotten to the point now where we’re going to be able to accelerate our, our growth. Percentages relative to revenue.

Victoria: So talk a little bit more about that planning. I mean, to me, you know, planning is so important to get the results you want. And I think so few people put the time and effort into it. So when you’re talking about this prospect, just walk us through a little bit of that process.

Jef: Okay. So the first thing is there’s kind of a core business plan, which is, different than an action plan. The core business plan is something that we look at on a five year basis. But we have, every year we produce an action plan that talks about our stated goals for, I work backwards. I don’t start off with revenue.

Jef: I start off with the number of jobs we want to produce, and we’re always looking at how many more jobs can we do that is and that will expand to the number of leads we get to, our conversion rate into design contracts and then our conversion rate into from design to build contracts. And we start looking at where our opportunities for improvement are.

Jef: And we set a plan to improve that for for example, three years ago we were really focused on improving our, our conversion rate from design to build. And last year in 2018, we achieved a 93%, which is our highest ever. But by the fact that we planned this for three and three years ago, you know, and we’re starting to see the results of it, that and then share the results with everyone.

Jef: That’s a pretty empowering, result that we’ve gotten from this planning aspect. Okay. But it’s it’s kind of a formula that we use every year determining how many what’s our new lead target, where’s our conversion rate? Do we think we can improve that or not improve it? Or if it’s going to go down a little bit, because when you bring in more salespeople, right, that’s, that’s going to adjust a little bit downwards.

Jef: But it’s, it’s having that, the ability to, to look and what you think you can do, but also have a, kind of a mid range plan as well, so you can adjust accordingly.

Victoria: So it as you’re going through this process, what were some of the biggest surprises?

Jef: The biggest surprise when I, when we started it was that I didn’t really have the, the buying, from the team. Why not really. Well, they weren’t sure why we were. We were trying to force, you know, why are we doing more work? We? Because I didn’t take the time to explain, Why? I thought we should grow.

Jef: You know, I had had several conversations with the leaders, my leadership team, and they were on board, but that message wasn’t getting filtered down. So we corrected that by having a meeting and, team meeting. And I passed out a three year growth plan, and, I had listed out the three top reasons why I felt it was important for us to grow.

Jef: And after a lot of conversation, everyone bought in with the concept of why. And I also gave people permission to leave the company that if you’re not on board with this, we understand and we want you to be happy in your employment. And if you feel working elsewhere is going to be a better situation for you, then we want you to to pursue that and I’ll give you references and I’ll help you in that process.

Jef: So once they understood that, the growth was a benefit to them as an employee, for example, being an offer health insurance, we needed to grow to be able to afford that, to be able to offer our a simple IRA plan, we needed to grow to be able to offer that as well. So once they saw the benefits of growth and they understood the reasons why, then they bought in.

Mark: Did you did you have anybody not take you up on that and ask to leave?

Jef: We yes, we had, one carpenter leave and and go out on his own as well he went to work for another a smaller contractor, but it’s a 1099 situation, so he’s technically working on his own.

Mark:

Jef: And he, he commented on it just in this stage of his life. He’s fairly young. He wanted to pursue, pursue that. So we supported him and off he went.

Victoria: Very cool. You know that’s the time to do it. When people are not comfortable with that situation. That’s the time to for them to make those decisions and allow you to have a seat for someone who is excited about your vision, correct?

Jef: Yes.

Victoria: No. I’m assuming you made some of those like a three year growth goals. You did that in conjunction with your leadership team, correct?

Jef: We did.

Victoria: So who’s on your leadership team?

Jef: My production manager, my office manager, my co owner, Monica, and one of our lead, designers.

Victoria: Okay. All right. Great. Good. So okay, so one of the surprises was that you had that challenge in getting the buy in. You had to take extra steps and you had to sort of sell it a little bit more than you thought. You were going to at the beginning.

Jef: Correct?

Victoria: Yes. What were some of the other surprises you ran into.

Jef: While getting, decisions? And so I had to, work what we call a consultative, decision making loop in that, because of our company needed structures, I was able to meet with the team, every week or meet with groups of people every week. And when we were faced with some big decisions, I would talk with my was my leadership team, but I would also talk with everyone else in the company and I would get feedback.

Jef: It might not have been feedback right there at the moment. I might have gotten an email 2 or 3 days later, but I was always able to gather a lot of information and I would explain this to people. That’s the type of decision making process we’re going through. I want your feedback, I want your input. But in the end, I’m going to make the final decision.

Jef: So and once everybody understood that, they were more willing to accept the decisions that we made.

Mark: Jef, I think you and I are similar in many ways. And and one of those ways is that, I’m very hands on. I think you’re very hands on person. You nobody can really do it as good as you, at least initially. Right. And, I’m wondering how how your role changed and how you even coped with letting go so much and trusting in others to to do it.

Jef: Well, that’s that’s the key. There’s a lot of self, introspection that had to happen for me over the years about my role and, and, and trust with people. And so, that the change from, the doer to the teacher and Judas, talks about that in the article. It is absolute and and it’s on every level.

Jef: So, it was about a year and a half ago that that really sunk in with me. And we’ve been making changes to support that. But, it is it’s one of the harder things to do to trust people. And you have to let people fail. And that’s an opportunity to teach and, and build and support. And once people really feel supported and that they have my trust and everyone else’s trust, the the level of input or the level of output we’re getting, has increased in everyone is bought in from it.

Jef: So, it’s just a more supportive environment. And that’s what that’s what I really enjoy about it now is that I get to talk with people, and I get to ask them questions and just listen to them talk and understand more about what is driving them and their job in their role. So and for me to get to that point, there’s been a lot of reading.

Jef: I’ve read more leaderships leadership books in the last year than I have, sorry, the last two years and I, I’ve read books period before, so, and then also the one of the last things about my role is just the planning and is has been paramount. It’s been continual. And I’m always talking with our, leadership team about next steps and what should we what should we be looking at?

Jef: So the transition of working in the company to working on the company goes hand in hand with from the doer to the teacher.

Victoria: So you are obviously enjoying your role as that teacher as much as you did the doer.

Jef: Oh my gosh, I’m enjoying it so much more.

Victoria: Really?

Jef: Yes, because more things are getting done, more things are getting done better, and the feedback loop is, really rewarding. So there’s nothing I like doing more than complimenting someone on a job well done. And I get to do that a lot. So instead of fixing problems, I’m encouraging. I mean, the problem level over the last five years has gone way, way down.

Jef: And we are no longer a reactionary company. We’re a proactive company at every level. And it’s it’s really fun to see, to see how our projects move through design moves to construction and how happy our clients are at the end.

Victoria: So give me a give me an example of how you sort of change from reactive to proactive. Can you think of a specific example?

Jef: Yes. So for example, just in terms of scheduling jobs, and scheduling subcontractors, so we’re able to be proactive with our schedule and our communication in a way with our clients that we’re removing the surprises versus being reactive and calling and or having a meeting and say, you know, I’m sorry, but our subcontractor is, delayed by three weeks because we don’t have the proper information or we’re waiting for this, material to come in because it came in, broken it, you know, things like that.

Jef: So we’ve been able to really turn that on its head.

Victoria: Okay, great. Can I jump back for a minute to the consultative decision making process that you talked about. So it sounds like you would go and sort of float a trial balloon to various groups, starting with your leadership team and then working your way around. So did you purposefully then I assume build in a certain amount of time, like do you feel I’m thinking about the disk profiles, the different personalities that are does it feel to you as though you have people in your organization that need that time to process in order to give you the feedback you’re looking for?

Jef: Yes, absolutely. So and that’s that’s part of being the proactive. So instead of going to everyone and saying I need a decision right now, you know, I only could do that was my DS or I’s right. My in my C’s. They they needed time to think about it. So the disk has also become more important than I ever thought before.

Jef: We only use the desk for, for myself and and a couple of key people in the company. But now everyone takes the desk. We have everyone’s desk listed up in our hallway. Like, we’ll go and and now we’re actually working on the next step of that, of having, little cheat sheets for every employee in terms of the best way to communicate and work with them.

Jef: So but planning, that time, I would wait at least a week before I would make any decisions.

Victoria: Okay, so would you give them a deadline then? Okay. We’re going to make a decision by this date. If you have any feedback, I’d love to have it. Let it ride. And then at the end and you’d make a decision and let them know what you decided.

Jef: Correct. I’ll come. And I’ve done that a couple of different ways. In that I’ll have a conversation with them and then I’ll set up an internal survey, within, a smartsheet. Or you can do it through Google Sheets as well, and, with a web form. And I would send out the email and say, you have my this time to give me your feedback.

Jef: And I got a lot of feedback, especially that way. So, yeah, it works.

Victoria: So did you find that your final decision was most often in line with that of your team, or were there some strong feelings ever, that came up that you had to then resell your idea?

Jef: I would say most everyone, came in agreement. There was a few that disagreed, but it wasn’t a strong disagreement. Okay, so I just made sure to have more conversations with those folks. Okay. But yeah, no, never any, you know, negative reactive issue so far.

Victoria: So if you had to do this again, if it was today and you decide you want to move two ways, do the same thing, right, 3 to 4, what would you have done differently?

Jef: What I have done differently, I would have started this sooner.

Victoria: How do you mean?

Jef: I would have started tried to start this process, similar back in 2007. Because I feel we would have went through the recession stronger for it or even starting it in 2005. But, you know, everything, everything happens for a reason. I don’t think I would have been ready. All right. Clearly wasn’t ready at that point. So just with the more education I’ve received and pursued with, being a business owner, you know, during that time and during that recession, I learned a lot of lessons.

Victoria: Yeah. Didn’t we all believe so?

Jef: I I’ve been more committed to it. So, if I would change anything, I would have I would have went for the buy in sooner. I would have had I would have made this a team decision sooner, instead of having my initial reactive aspect of having to go back and get buy in, I would I would have started the process a little differently.

Victoria: So how would you have started it? I mean, you know, let’s teach us from your lessons.

Jef: Okay? So at the end of a year, and that’s when we’re typically pushing out our, our revising our three year plan and then developing our one year action plan instead of just taking that initially to the, leadership, I would have brought that to the entire team at a company meeting, and let them ruminate on that for a bit and basically make it a month long discussion and then, you know, getting everyone’s vision and then kicking off, I feel we we would have shortened, shortened, shortened our process a little bit with that, however, that that would be the one thing I would, I would change.

Victoria: So out of all the things we discussed today, the planning side of it, the consultative decision making side of a you reading, the all the books and and self-improvement to become a better leader. You know what is there any aspect of this that you feel is the most critical should be the highest priority for someone wanting to make this shift?

Jef: So that is a great question. This comes down to understanding your priorities. And in terms of the big picture. And our priorities definitely shifted so that the number one element that has, helped drive us to success is our, our company culture. And I always knew it was important, but I never I never really put it. It wasn’t in my top three, but it is our number one, aspect that we focus on and everything else.

Jef: Once we have a positive, fun, rewarding culture for the team of happy employees, everything else is so much easier. Clients are happier, services delivered far better, and, modifications to to the systems. And it’s important to have flexible and adaptable systems. But when you have a good culture, those systems can be modified, adapted rather easily.

Jef: And it’s it’s a team Buy-In. And when you have team buy in you you get or I’m sorry. When you have your team a part of the decisions you get the buy in and things happen.

Mark: So Jef did the did the did the culture change or did it just become, more focus on it?

Jef: It yes, it changed in that it improved. So, we have it in in starting this plan, we had a mission statement and we had a value statement, but, after and these were from, five years ago, but those were mostly from me that I was working with the team with. And so I did a study two years ago.

Jef: I wanted to know their opinions. Do we really live by these values? And I did not get the response that I wanted. So we set off on creating new values and a new mission statement. And but again, they’re buying their input on it has has really been a big a big deal. And we’ve just finalized, working through the final edits, our value statement, which I’m going to get, redistributed.

Jef: And we’re working through our mission statement right now. But the the whole idea that, they have more by and with the company has been the primary increase in our culture, and we do a lot of different things to have fun as a company as well. And that that’s a part of the culture. But, that the buy in, I think is the core element.

Mark: And having fun is also a core element. I think, in fact, why don’t we do that right now? Are you ready for the lightning round?

Jef: Yes. Bring it on.

Mark: I know you’re so excited, aren’t you?

Speaker 4 Oh.

Jef: And now here’s the remodelers advantage. Lightning round. It’s a dry all.

Mark: I put 60s on the clock. Here we go. What’s your favorite business book and why.

Jef: Is, Well, my favorite business book is right now is Scrum by Jef Sutherland. And I’ve read a lot of books, but that’s the one that’s having the most impact on me right now, right?

Mark: If you weren’t the owner of Forward Design build, remodel, what do you think you’d be doing?

Jef: I would be a a gourmet chef.

Victoria: Oh.

Jef: Can you. Yeah. It’s creative and it serves people literally just.

Victoria: Are you good at it?

Jef: No.

Speaker 4 It’s.

Mark: What are you not very good at?

Speaker 4 Cooking?

Jef: But I’m not very good at and not liking. I don’t like to fill out forms. I loathe going to a doctor’s office because they always give you a form, and they always ask for the same information that they already have on file. So drives movements.

Victoria: Exactly.

Mark: Your room, your desk for your car. Which do you clean first?

Jef: It’s simple. My car, my room, my desk.

Mark: Do you sing in the shower?

Jef: I sing in the shower. In my room? Yes, I sing a lot.

Mark: What was the last thing you sang? And.

Jef: Maybe got back with my daughter.

Victoria: That’s great.

Mark: If there was.

Jef: You were singing along with her.

Mark: If there was a movie produced about your life, who would play you?

Jef: Woody Harrelson for me.

Mark: I think I see it, I see it. That’s amazing. That’s fantastic.

Victoria: Just once again, thank you for your generosity. You’re awesome. And we’re going to have you back on the show because we got a whole bunch other topics so we could talk to you about, don’t we?

Jef: Yes we do, yes we.

Victoria: Do. Before we go, though, we have to share with our listeners your five words of wisdom and why you chose those particular words.

Jef: So I’ve got a couple and they’re kind of mantras that I say to myself. So they’re they’re my words of wisdom.

Mark: Now, remember, you’re going to be back on the show. So save one.

Jef: Okay. So with this one, I would say that it’s it’s not about you, dummy.

Victoria: Okay. There you go.

Jef: And literally that is something I repeat to myself often. And the dummy is just a little fun little deprecating aspect of it to just to maintain focus in on others. And I, I have been, you know, in this business to serve others in terms of homeowners. But when I, when I finally broke through that, that, that aspect of the serving my employees, as well.

Jef: And then that is something that I’ve gotten much more reward from, you know, as well as clients, but, that’s, that’s a driving force for us. It’s a driving force for me being a better teacher and mentor.

Mark: I love it. That was awesome.

Victoria: All right, well, Jef, this has been wonderful. Love talking to you about this. I can’t wait to see you as you continue on your growth path and your culture building and so on. So thank you very much. Thank you.

Jef: Appreciate being here.

Mark: Thank you. Thank you, Jef. I loved his five words of wisdom.

Victoria: Oh yeah. They were great, you know. Really? Yeah. It’s not a slap in the face, doesn’t it? It.

Mark: It’s so true. Yeah.

Victoria: And to not ever forget that it’s not about you. And think about the person that you’re talking to or the person you’re dealing with or the person you’re serving. Yep.

Mark: Well, that’s, I mean, just on the marketing side, that’s my number one.

Victoria: That’s right.

Mark: Thing that I always say, because the biggest mistake I see everybody make just in marketing. But that’s right. You know, that goes across the board in all, all phases of business. It’s not about you.

Victoria: Dummy. You know, one of the things that I like about Jef is he is always trying to improve his business. I mean, the guy is a voracious reader. He’s always looking for better ways. He’s just out there searching all the time. He never sits on his laurels, never feels that he’s got it.

Mark: It’s awesome. Yeah. And like I said it, we’re we’re similar.

Victoria: Kind of theoretical.

Mark: You just can’t stop. It’s like I need more and more, you know, listening to podcasts everywhere you go and reading books whenever you can. You know, I even started I never used to listen to books, but I had to start doing it because I couldn’t just listen to music in the car. What a waste.

Victoria: Yeah I really, I know is that really. On the other hand, you think man, one moment in the life when you could sort of chill with listening to music.

Mark: But now there’s nothing things that there’s nothing chill about sitting in traffic. I’m just telling.

Victoria: You that’s true. So. Well and again, Jef’s been a member of roundtables for a long time. He’s in an awesome group and they are just constantly sharing stuff back and forth. So it was great to have him on the show.

Mark: Yeah, can’t wait to have him on again. He’s got tons of topics we can talk his brains about, right? He’s he’s a smart cookie.

Victoria: Yes, yes.

Mark: Oh, and you know what else. All that talk we did about the disc profile and. Oh, yeah, assessments and all that. For anyone that isn’t familiar with that, we actually did an episode, episode 45, I think, with, Rick Bowers that really got into that whole thing with the disc profiling and with the DNA. I in the s in the CR.

Mark: Yeah. So if you got lost on that whole thing, you should check that episode out.

Victoria: It is an incredible tool for hiring and team communication. We use it all the time.

Mark: And I love it. Yep, yep. Well, this was a fun one. It’s just nice to be back in the studio.

Victoria: Yes. Yes. Oh, really? Yeah. Last couple were on the road or anything.

Mark: Yeah, yeah, it’s been rough, but it’s fun. So that was a good episode.

Victoria: Yes, it was, you know, and I just want to say to those folks that are out there that have companies that are $1 million or more in annual revenue, if you’re not really hitting the the results you want, like Jef talked about, if you’re not really running a company that you want to run, call us up. Join roundtables.

Victoria: It’s an awesome program with tons of great people like Jef.

Mark: Yeah. Well, Jef, well, like you said in the beginning, he said, you know, we thanked him for for sharing. He said it’s a 10th of what he’s received. Right? But isn’t that awesome? Yeah. He’s great. All right. Well, thanks for being here. I am Mark Harari and.

Victoria: I’m Victoria Downing. See you next week.