Mark: Today on PowerTips Unscripted, we talked to Spencer Powell, CEO of Builder Funnel. For many, Remodelers digital marketing is the voodoo magic website’s on page SEO user experience, linking strategy, drip campaigns, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, hashtags, landing pages that are where do you even start? Well, Spencer feels your pain. So he just published a book, the Remodeler Marketing Blueprint.

Mark: It’s basically everything you’ll ever need to know about getting found online. And he’s here to share some of what’s on the inside. In just a minute.

Victoria: Hi, I’m Victoria Downing, and welcome to PowerTips Unscripted, where we talk about tips, tactics and techniques to help you build a strong, profitable remodeling company. And I’m here with my co-host, Mark Harari.

Mark: Yes you are.

Victoria: How are you today?

Mark: I’m good.

Victoria: Oh, one of your favorite topics today?

Mark: The favorite topic? Yeah. Marketing?

Victoria: Yeah. Yeah. So I’m excited about having our guest on today. So much so that I think we should just dive right in.

Mark: Oh, okay. Wow. You’re in a rush.

Victoria: I know, I love it’s one of my favorite topics to it specifically right now. I don’t know, just is a massive interest right now.

Mark: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I want to get the sponsor. Let’s get it.

Victoria: Going. Spencer is the CEO of Builder Funnel, founder of Builder Funnel Academy. Host of Builder Funnel Radio and the author of his new book, The Remodeler Marketing Blueprint. When he’s not helping Remodelers grow their businesses, you can find him playing beach volleyball or hanging out at the local Chipotle. Spencer also has been one of our sponsors for a long time, and we love working with them.

Victoria: Welcome, Spencer. Glad to have you back.

Spencer: Hey, I’m glad to be here. Good to see you guys. Yeah.

Victoria: So is this your first book?

Spencer: It is. Yeah, it’s been been on the bucket list for a while. And, yeah, after doing this whole marketing thing for ten years, it just seemed like. Yeah. Why not?

Victoria: So do you share? I think it was Virginia Woolf who once said, I am delighted to have written a book. Not so much the process, but glad to have it done. Is that how you feel about it?

Spencer: Yeah. You know, I got it started in early 2020, and, I just was like, I’m going to blow through this, you know, in three months. I want to get the first first draft done. And then after that I was like, okay, next quarter I’m going to edit. And I got about two weeks. And I was like, this is a slog.

Victoria: Yes it is.

Spencer: Very glad to be on the other side of it.

Victoria: Also a published author, owner of a great marketing company. How did your whole journey get started?

Spencer: You know, it’s, probably not that different from a lot of people. You kind of just fall into certain things. You know, I got out of school and, this was during the Great Recession. And so, I was just online looking for jobs, trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life. And I realized that social media was being used for business or starting to be.

Spencer: It was kind of the infant stages. You know, Facebook business pages were like the new hot item. And, and I just kind of kept diving into that world. And I said, you know, I think I can figure this out. And so I got a few friends and family clients to start and set up an LLC and, just kind of got rolling.

Spencer: And as with most things, you know, you iterate, you test, you fail, you make mistakes, you learn, you get some wins, you fail some more, and it kind of keeps going. But, really that was kind of the the infant stages. And then my dad had a direct mail company at the time, and that was making a big shift.

Spencer: You know, he was going, hey, I just went to this conference. They said, direct mail has gone off a cliff. You need to transform. And so he said, why don’t you just bring what you’re doing over here? We’ll start this little division. And so that ended up being kind of a disruptive business within the legacy business. And then we built it up big enough, spun it off into its own company, and he sold off the direct mail side of the business.

Spencer: Oh that’s.

Victoria: Awesome. What a great story. So another family business here, right?

Spencer: Oh, man. We got a lot of family business on our side, do you? But it’s a lot of fun.

Victoria: So you’ve been doing this now for again like you said, ten, 12 years. Right. So what how is marketing changed over the years?

Spencer: Yeah. You know, it’s it’s a really good question, Victoria, because I think that’s kind of the crux of all of this is that we, we saw, you know, marketing used to just be, you know, you’d grab your trucks and you do some direct mail and, you know, you do some radio, you do some TV. But with the internet, you know, things changed dramatically.

Spencer: The consumer started to have access to all this information that they normally didn’t have. You know, they normally had to go to a salesperson. And the salesperson was like, here’s all this info that you want, and I can kind of pitch you. But then the internet came around. I was like, oh, I’ll just Google that, or I’ll just find that online.

Spencer: And so it was very empowering to the consumer. And so the big shift in the way we approach marketing now is really just an effort to match the way people shop and buy. And so if they’re going online and they’re looking for all this information, why don’t we be the creators of that information and actually be the educators?

Spencer: And that will pull them into us. And so that’s really the big shift that we saw was, hey, the way people are just shopping and buying looks different. So how are we going to make a shift in our marketing know?

Victoria: Spencer? Is that sort of the same philosophy as as I’ve heard the other? There’s another term content marketing.

Spencer: Absolutely. Yeah. So if you think about, I like to use this example around cost, especially in the remodeling space because one, it’s a little bit scary to talk about that. But it’s pretty much the number one question people want to know is that so let’s say I want to remodel my kitchen and I’m here in Colorado Springs.

Spencer: So I’m just going to type into Google. I wonder what that cost. How much does it cost to remodel a kitchen in Colorado Springs. And so what what we do as content creators, as marketers, is we answer that question. We write a blog post about it, we do a video, we do a podcast. We do something where we’re going to say, hey, I know you are wondering about this, so I’m going to give you the information.

Spencer: And so that’s really what content marketing is. But it works twofold. One, it works to attract them and pull them in because they’re already looking for it. They’re going to find the information somewhere. I’d rather have them find it from you versus HGTV and get some bad information on, you know, it’s going to be four grand to redo your kitchen instead of 100 grand, you know?

Spencer: And so now they’ve been pulled in. So now they’re actually on your website, but now you can actually pre-qualify for them. So if you say, hey, our typical kitchen is 75 to 250 and they had a budget of 30. Hopefully they don’t call you right, right.

Victoria: Right. Exactly. Yeah. So you create all this content, you want to drive them to your website. But just creating the contact. Excuse me. Just creating the content doesn’t pull them to your website. So how do you once you create the content and the education how do you get it? How do you spread the word.

Spencer: Yeah, yeah. And I love this question because a lot of us that that kind of get content marketing and we embrace that and we go, okay, I’m going to start creating it. A lot of times we create it, we hit publish or like we’ve done, you know, but it’s like really that’s the start of it. And then you have to promote it.

Spencer: And so there are lots of different ways you can promote it. If we just use that same example, you write a blog post on how much it costs to remodel a kitchen in your area, than one, you’re going to send that out to your email list. So hey, you might have been wondering this over the years.

Spencer: You know, we just tackled this question and answered it over here on our blog. Visit that post, to hopefully when you’ve done that content creation, you’ve done a little bit of keyword research and you’ve already kind of thought about what somebody’s searching for. So in this case, when you start with a question, you’re actually kind of default using a little bit of SEO without even really doing a lot of research.

Spencer: But, you know, hey, a lot of people are looking for this question. If I just make that the title of my blog, like, you’re already doing pretty well, and there’s some more technical things that we could dive into if you’re really interested. But SEO is kind of another one of those promotional buckets. And then social is a great way to say, hey, I just created this content.

Spencer: Now I’m going to kind of use this as my megaphone and share it and get it out there and drive. Some people back to the site. You can also use some paid channels like Google Ads or Facebook ads. But generally if you’ve done a little bit of that SEO work and then you promote via social and email and you drive some traffic, Google start seeing there’s traffic going there, and then hopefully that spurs it to move up in the rankings.

Spencer: And a lot of this does take some time for that post to really gain traction in the search engines, but you can get some quick wins with kind of that email and social channels.

Mark: Spencer, you work primarily with Remodelers and some, custom home builders, and that’s the extent of your your clientele. Right?

Spencer: Pretty much. Yep.

Mark: So what are what are you seeing since that’s all you deal with, what’s what’s the biggest mistakes that Remodelers are making in their marketing today?

Spencer: You know, the biggest mistakes?

Mark: The top five.

Spencer: What I would say one of them, and it refers to digital, but it applies to everything. But I see it most commonly with digital is, not putting the proper tracking mechanisms in place actually, you know, so you go to these conferences or you listen to a podcast like this and you’re like, oh, great blogging. Let’s do some of that.

Spencer: You know, that sounds like a tactic that we can do here at ABC remodeling. And so you start doing that, but then you get three months down the road, it starts getting tough because you can’t really you’re like, is this working? Is it not? Okay, we’ll keep going a little more even at six months, nine months, a year.

Spencer: And then you kind of go, why are we doing this? And then you just stop and it’s and why do you stop? You only start because you don’t know if it’s working and if it doesn’t feel like it’s working, then we make a feeling decision and it’s never going to feel like it’s working unless you hear on your sales calls, have been reading your blog, it’s awesome.

Spencer: Then you’re going to. Okay, yeah, maybe I’ll keep blogging. But if you’re not hearing that, if you don’t have the data to back it up, then it’s really easy to quit. And so and you see that with social, you see it with SEO, you see it with just a lot of digital channels because the way I see a lot of remodelers capturing intake leads is, oh, this came from my website.

Spencer: That’s a great step one. But it’s really tough to go. Okay, but but where did they come from? Was it Google organic? Was it Facebook? Was it paid social. Was it house? Was it a third party website where I’m listed as a partner? You know, there’s so many ways that somebody could get to you. And if you don’t have that data, then, yeah, you’re just going to be really frustrated and you’ll quit stuff that maybe you shouldn’t.

Mark: I’m curious that that makes me that just took me right down to something that’s always. It’s been a little bit of a pet peeve of mine, but what’s your opinion on just, the reliability of just asking someone, you know, that that obligatory question like, how did you hear of us? They put it on their forms or whatever, or they ask outright at the kitchen table.

Mark: So how did you hear about us? What? What’s your opinion on that?

Spencer: Yeah. I think I think it’s good, let’s say qualitative data. Maybe if we want to put it in that bucket, I think it’s helpful. I don’t think it’s, 100%, you know, it definitely isn’t, because they’re just going to remember, one of the touches, most likely. Right. And we won’t get into whole attribution reporting because I haven’t figured that all out.

Spencer: But it’s it gets super complex. But an example would be maybe they see your sign. You know, in their neighborhood, and then they do a Google search and they find you and, and then when they talk to you, they say, how did you hear about us? And they go, oh, yeah, I’ve been following you on Facebook, you know, and it’s like, well, okay.

Spencer: There was a lot of different things that influenced that. So I think that question should be asked. It’s very helpful. But if you can also kind of double check it with hard data from your website and your analytics, you can start to get a better feeling for are people really accurate or you know, how close is the answer to that question to what my data says?

Mark: Yeah, I hear you. One of the things that I have run into before I, I’ll visit our website and they’ll have that and they’ll have it as a drop down. And there’s like 42 things listed there. And then I just think a lot of ways, because I’m not going to sit there and read 42 items, I just click on anyone that’s closest to my mouse cursor at the moment and move on.

Mark: You know what I mean?

Spencer: Good point. Yeah, exactly. And are you really tracking all 42 of those and report on them.

Mark: Right.

Spencer: Yeah.

Victoria: Okay. Let’s go back to mistakes will be in the next mistake on your list. I may come back to tracking and ask you another more couple more questions there. But let’s go to the next mistake.

Spencer: Sure, sure. So, I think consistency lack of consistency I guess would be the mistake. And so, again, I think it’s a little bit tied to the data thing, because when you have data that supports something, it helps you be consistent. But I think oftentimes with marketing it’s kind of this afterthought. You know, a lot of this industry has built their businesses on word of mouth referral.

Spencer: It’s just been very organic growth over, you know, decades, you know, sometimes passed down within family business, which is awesome. It’s one of the reasons I love this industry. You see a lot of family business. But but marketing kind of becomes that afterthought. And so you go from spending zero marketing and then you go, you know, we’ve kind of stalled out at 2 million.

Spencer: So I think maybe now we should look at some marketing. Okay. Great. Well, I went to this conference and they said social media is really important. So we’re going to set up our Facebook and our Instagram in our house. And maybe we’re going to start some blogging or something like that. And then you do that for three months and you’ve probably spent, you know, at least in the definitely the hundreds and maybe the thousands of dollars at this point, like getting it all going and you’re going, well, gosh, we were spending $0 to get 2 million, and now we’ve spent 10,000 and I haven’t seen anything yet where I’ve gotten a little bit of business.

Spencer: And so we think this ratio is going to be 0 to 2 million. Well, if I just spend $10,000 I should be like 5 million. And that’s just not how it works. And so I think, you know, people start and stop a lot of activities because of that. They just go, hey, I put five grand into this.

Spencer: I put ten grand of this, you know, I haven’t seen anything. It’s been three months or three minutes, you know, why haven’t I seen the results? And so, lack of consistency and just jumping ship from tactic to tactic, I see that a lot.

Victoria: Well, so do you feel that there’s a time frame? I mean, back in the day before digital got to be such a big thing when I actually could talk about marketing knowledgeably. I would say it would take a good six months to get stuff up and running. It’s like a flywheel, right? That really heavy thing to get it started.

Victoria: But once you get it going, it just keeps going. What what do you what’s a good time frame for some of these tactics assuming they are tracking.

Spencer: Yeah. Great question. I would say I’m going to maybe split it into a couple of buckets. You know, one is going to be more of the organic side of things. So thinking ranking in Google and building up an organic social presence, you know, you’re looking at six months minimum. But I like to tell people like, hey, 9 to 12 months before you really feel like, okay, is this working?

Spencer: Can I see the progress or are we heading in the right direction? I think when you get paid involved on like Google ads or paid social, you can accelerate that a little bit. Typically your cost for lead is going to be higher through those channels and over time you see organic being lower cost per lead and generally a higher quality lead.

Spencer: I haven’t quite figured out exactly why that is, but that’s what we see across all of our, you know, client data that we look at. So yeah, it takes some time. And the thing that’s really, I think, frustrating for a lot of companies is going, okay, so I’m going to dump 20, 30, 40 grand into this for the first year.

Spencer: And then I’ll kind of know if it’s working. And so it is one of those things where you’re going, okay, I’m really making an investment in my future pipeline. And and that’s why they always say invest in marketing when things are good because you have the capital to do it and you don’t really need the results yet. And then when things are bad and you need it, you’ve been building this marketing machine.

Spencer: And we saw that during, 2020 for a lot of our clients. You know, they’d been doing stuff for a while, and then it was like everything froze for about 45 days because it did for everybody what we were trying to figure out what’s going on, and then everyone just shot out of a cannon, right? Part of that was our industry just benefited.

Spencer: But, man, it was just like a balloon of of leads. And so, yeah, I think you do need to have that long term, you know, mindset when you start to invest, you can get quick wins. And we certainly shoot for those. You can boost your conversion rate within three months pretty quickly. But I, I don’t like to over promise.

Spencer: So I like people to have that kind of long term vision.

Victoria: Okay, great. All right. Mistake number three.

Spencer: Who makes mistake number three is, I would say, thinking that redoing your website magically makes it get more traffic.

Victoria: So how do you mean?

Mark: But you mean just pretty, pretty websites don’t just magically get leads. Really?

Spencer: You would. You would think they would market. Yeah, I, I did a whole, like whole podcast on this because I just one day it just hit me. And I was just so mad because you’d see these companies and they’d go hire some web design agency. Not saying they’re good or bad or whatever it is, and they’d spend, you know, five grand, ten grand, 20 grand.

Spencer: They redo their website and then boom, they launch. It looks great, right? Looks amazing. But they’re going, yeah, it didn’t really get me any more leads. You’re going, well, yeah, but that’s just because you you worked on the design which is the look in the field. So now when the same people, the same number of people that we’re getting there on a monthly basis now, they’re getting they’re still same number, they just see something different.

Spencer: And so there’s this whole thing that we think design is performance. But there they’re two very different things. And design can influence performance. As an example, you can improve your conversion rate, which would have to do with how the pages laid out, where the calls to action are. You know how easy it is for somebody to convert, but generally just redoing and and making your website look better or different?

Spencer: Isn’t all the sudden going to get a bunch more people coming to it? That’s where blogging and content and SEO and paid channels and social, those are the things that drive people to the site. So I for anybody that’s ever considering a redesign, I always just say, that’s great. If you think you need a brand lift or you need, you know, like it’s outdated, but don’t look at it as all of a sudden, you know, snap my fingers and we’re going to get more, more leads.

Spencer: All of a sudden.

Mark: Spencer, I wanted to touch, specifically on your book for a second, the Remodeler marketing blueprint. For any of our listeners that haven’t bought it yet. What what’s maybe one big thing. What’s the biggest thing that someone could expect to walk away from, from, from getting your book?

Spencer: Yeah. Thanks for asking. I would say one of the things that I tried to do, because I’ve read a lot of books at this point in my life. And so writing one, I was going to, well, this is different. Being on this side of the coin, I tried to mesh a lot of, you know, here’s the why.

Spencer: Here’s why things have shifted. Here’s what you can do with tactical things that you can actually take from it and implement right away. So there are those baked into the lessons, you know, like, here’s why content marketing is important, but here’s how you can immediately get started. And here’s some shortcuts that go along with it. And I guess just to pull one out, you know, for people listening to this, I would say top of the funnel lead conversion is something we talk about a lot.

Spencer: And that is when somebody comes to your website and they’re not ready for a sales conversation. This happens all the time. Just look at how many people visit your website and how many leads you actually get. Those numbers are very different. And so all the people that visit your website that aren’t ready for a sales conversation, most of them, they’re they’re actually interested in a project and they’re interested in doing whatever it is they’re researching, just not yet.

Spencer: And so if you can capture them and pull them into your funnel now, now you have a really easy way and effective way email to stay in front of them while they go through this research process. So I talk about that top of the funnel lead conversion process and like exactly what you can do to, you know, start implementing that on your website.

Victoria: All right. Great. That sounds awesome. I love the practical stuff that you’ve added into the book. That’ll be very helpful to some. Now just I had one other question on going back to tracking, if you don’t mind.

Spencer: Yeah, let’s do it.

Victoria: One of the things I’ve heard discussed around here a lot is the time frame of a lead suffering example. If you’re looking at tracking leads for the last quarter or the last month, it might have actually somebody might have filled out a form in that time frame. But how do you relate it back to the previous 18 months ago when they logged in, when they signed up for your newsletter and been getting all that information for the last 18 months?

Spencer: Yeah, I love this question. Because I think this reveals, you know, two different processes and that’s our sales process and our marketing process. So our sales process in this industry, it can still be pretty lengthy, right? Like from first phone call to a signed construction agreement, after you get through design and all that, you know, can be months and sometimes years, but it’s definitely months.

Spencer: You know, it could be three months. Six months. Well, if you think about that is that’s from the moment they actually called you and expressed direct interest all the time before that was marketing interest where they’re doing research. So that could be the same or double. You know, or more time. And so back to your question. You know, if you have a way to track people when they come into your website and they say, sign up for your newsletter, you’re to okay, that’s my initial conversion.

Spencer: That’s when they start doing research. And obviously that’s just when they start doing research and connected with you. They could have been researching other places, but now you’re sending them emails. They’re revisiting the website. They may have a conversation with sales. You find out they’re not really ready yet, but they just wanted to connect. And so now they’re six months ago by but they’re still getting your emails and opening up.

Spencer: And so what you’re looking at here is how all these pieces work together. And you’re looking at a first conversion point and then all the influencing marketing things that happen, which are all the emails and all the content that they’re reading when they click on those emails. And now they’re building trust. And and I think we just think this stuff magically happens.

Spencer: There is a science to it. I like to think marketing is art and science, but this is the part where you can really see like, well, out of these ten customers we closed this year, you know, seven, you know them. They opened our email six or more times. Right. Well, I think our email is having a, you know, an impact on that.

Spencer: All right.

Mark: Great. Very cool. Spencer, one of the magical things that happens on this show is we go from really, really intelligent conversation about one’s book to.

Victoria: Silliness.

Mark: Silliness, and looking inside your head. So you ready for the lightning round?

Spencer: Let’s do it. And now here’s the reminders. Advantage lightning round. It’s a draft.

Mark: Okay, let’s put 60s on the clock. Here we go. What’s your favorite business book and why?

Spencer: I’ll go with four disciplines of execution. And that’s because we implemented it last year fully. And it worked really, really well.

Mark: If you weren’t the CEO of Builder Funnel, what do you think you’d be doing.

Spencer: Playing beach volleyball?

Mark: What are you not very good at?

Spencer: Anything art or music related, like singing or playing an instrument or drawing.

Mark: Your room, your desk or your car? Which would you clean first?

Spencer: Room.

Mark: Name a movie you seen more than ten times.

Spencer: Lord of the rings.

Mark: What do you think’s the greatest invention ever?

Spencer: And cars. Cars, all I.

Mark: Can’t, I love my car.

Victoria: And just wait until they get to be self-driving. It’s really going to be sort of. All right. Spencer, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for sharing some of your wisdom on marketing with our our listening audience. But before which, couple of things. If people wanted to learn more about your book or build your funnel, where would they go?

Spencer: Yeah. So if you want to pick up a copy of the book, just go to Remodeler Marketing blueprint.com. You can also just search for it on Amazon. But if you go to the website, we’ve got some bonuses going on with the book. Even if you buy one copy and then builder funnel super easy builder funnel.com.

Victoria: All right. Great. Thank you. And then I want you to share your five words of wisdom and why they resonate with you.

Spencer: So I would say control what you can control. And that resonates with me, especially in light of I think last year, like, stuff’s going to happen that’s outside of your control. And it always happens, whether it’s a pandemic or something else or minor challenges. You know, you’re driving along and somebody, you know, gives you a fender bender and it’s a problem for the day.

Spencer: But like, you can always control what you can control, which is your attitude, how you react, how you move forward. So I yeah, I love that concept. Yeah.

Victoria: That’s awesome. Thank you so much. That’s perfect. Spencer, we appreciate you being here again. And I’m sure we’ll have you on yet again someday in the future. So thanks for being part of our tips. Unscripted.

Spencer: Cool. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me, guys.

Mark: Thanks, Spencer.

Victoria: Well, that was pretty interesting conversation, wasn’t it.

Mark: Always marketing conversations interest me.

Victoria: Yeah. So you know what’s what you know I think very succinct. Right. And we’ve seen it forever. Lack of tracking. Right. If you don’t have data it’s just like running your business. If you don’t have data how do you know if you’re improving. You got to have a benchmark up there. Your starting point. No. Is it going up?

Victoria: Is it going down? What’s going on?

Mark: It’s really, really the probably the biggest challenge for for anybody even even we struggle with with tracking. You know, it’s it’s always a I think part of it too comes from the fact that because of the world, the day and age we live in now, everybody has this expectation that you can just click a button and then there’s just all these charts and graphs.

Mark: They’re going to give you all the answers and it’s not really the case. Sometimes it actually takes even though it’s digital sitting down looking at the numbers over here, comparing them to the numbers over there, bringing them together and putting it together in a cohesive story. And it’s not always about just pushing a button and spitting out a dash.

Mark: No, no. So that that adds a lot of, challenges to it. But it’s it’s highly critical to the process.

Victoria: Right? I wonder if there’s a way to choose a small you, don’t you? You’re a marketing expert as well, but something that maybe we can touch on in more depth. But like if you were going to track the ten most important.

Mark: Metrics.

Victoria: Metrics from what source is right, what would they be? That could be a good one for us.

Mark: That’s a whole nother show for sure, man. Yeah, that’s good stuff. Yeah. You know, I thought something else too. And that’s it’s easier said than done. I know it firsthand, but the having the patience to let the campaigns work and let the things happen and it’s not going to be just, okay, you hire the agency or you hire a marketer or you do it yourself.

Mark: And, you know, two weeks. Here’s just a flood of stuff. You got to have some patience and and let it work. Its magic take. It’s hard though. I know it’s hard. It’s going to be it’s it was hard. It’s hard for me. I’ve been doing this for 20 plus years. Right. You know, and then launched my book. And you just sit there, you’re like, well, where are the sales?

Mark: Let’s go. Come on, come on, let’s go, let’s go, let’s go. I want to see it. I want to see it because that’s the fun stuff, seeing the leads fly in.

Victoria: And yes.

Mark: It is the dollars and the the money coming. And it’s just that’s exciting. But the waiting game of marketing, it can be daunting for many, you know?

Victoria: And lastly, I think that in today’s world, I cannot imagine running a business and doing the marketing myself. I just can’t imagine it. I mean, I was I was doing our marketing and was advising on marketing for years, but once this whole digital revolution hit, I couldn’t keep up and didn’t want to, frankly, just got to be too technical.

Victoria: And, you know, just the whole thing changed. It’s really would be difficult, I think, for any remodeler running a business, selling projects, doing all the other things to literally run the marketing themselves.

Mark: If they’re trying to do it all. Yeah. I mean, if if they’re not the salesperson, you could, you know, it’s it kind of goes, but it’s still it goes to kind of what your specialization is, what you, what you’re interested in.

Victoria: Right. But they do have to be really interested in marketing to learn if they need to learn, make it work. It’s just a lot of technicalities these days. But anyway, that’s why.

Mark: These great books come out.

Victoria: That’s right.

Mark: So they guide you, guide you and show you that, you know, you can do this, right. But, you know, that’s kind of the thing too, even if you’re not going to do it yourself, you should still read up on this stuff so that you’re in the know because you hire somebody. You don’t want to be sold a bill of goods.

Mark: That’s right. So you want to at least have a base knowledge of how this stuff works, what words mean, what concepts and theories are out there so that you can speak intelligently to it when when somebody is giving you advice or direction.

Victoria: Right. So hey good stuff.

Mark: Absolutely. Well, we want to thank Spencer for taking the time out of his day, and we want to thank you for listening week in and week out. I am Mark Harari.

Victoria: And I’m Victoria Downing. See you next week.